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 Anyone even notice this?

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mc

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:39 pm

ElRoi wrote:
saichan wrote:
On his Facebook page, James said the More Power CD was approved by Pop/Williamson... I asked him about the overdubs, and who played them, but am yet to get a reply.

So my copy of 'More Power' that I paid way too much for in an effort to help keep my local indie record store in business might not be a totally bastardized abomination after all?

The liner notes say that the "2009 audio transfers & sound restoration by Jurgen Engler & Chris Leitz at Atom H. Studio, Austin, TX" and that the mastering was done by the same two guys. Anybody heard of either one of them?

No still an abomination! Smile
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:23 pm

mc wrote:
ElRoi wrote:
saichan wrote:
On his Facebook page, James said the More Power CD was approved by Pop/Williamson... I asked him about the overdubs, and who played them, but am yet to get a reply.

So my copy of 'More Power' that I paid way too much for in an effort to help keep my local indie record store in business might not be a totally bastardized abomination after all?

The liner notes say that the "2009 audio transfers & sound restoration by Jurgen Engler & Chris Leitz at Atom H. Studio, Austin, TX" and that the mastering was done by the same two guys. Anybody heard of either one of them?

No still an abomination! Smile

So, is there anything on there that isn't bastardized that might in some way sound better than other sources or might actually not be available else where? Please, give me some hope that I didn't totally waste my money. I really could care less about listening to something that has been altered in any way unless at least one Stooge's hand was somehow involved. No matter how sonically superior it might seem. If those guys really were into punk you would think they would know not to go tinkering with historical artifacts no matter how degraded they may be. You would never attempt to retouch the Mona Lisa would you?
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mc

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:31 pm

I know Engler's work from two supposed Krautrock supergroup albums - Other Places and Space Explosion, both albums totally devoid of the feeling and passion that all good Krautrock albums usually have.

Actually the additions on More Power have much the same effect IMHO.
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homesickjameswilliamson
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:54 am

They did it again...



Its a single or EP or something, listen to it on spotify

tracklist is;
Purple Haze
I'm So Glad
Jesus Loves The Stooges
Hollis Brown

they've added drums and bass to them, didnt mind the last one but i dont like this, i'm so glad and hollis brown were great songs that i really liked

i was wondering when i was listening to it, are they allowed to do this? add drums etc to songs, i konw they're only rough stuff no ones really going to listen to but does iggy/the band have to sign off on this stuff? and also how cheap must these tapes be?

edit;



just found this, does anyone have any information on it, it has the same dubbed version of purple haze - also avaliable on spotify or amazon mp3 for 6.99
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mc

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:17 am

Ouch! Hopefully the shocking cover art will stop people buying this and finding out they've made a big mistake.

I've always enjoyed Iggy's Hollis Brown.
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Radiobirdman73

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:55 pm

these make me think of the two releases on Get Back Records - anyone pick them up?

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:09fexqrdldte

they've put out three of them - which according to the reviewer - sounds better than any other versions. Hmmm
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Wed May 26, 2010 2:58 am

Borntohula wrote:
trailerborn: Seriously, some of the overdubb is quite well done. The drums and guitar do blend in quite well in some of the songs, esp Open up and bleed. They'v stuck to the basic drumming sound and the guitarsound sounds like if it was picked up from the demo. Sounds just the right amount of puffed up without straying away from the originals power of raw.
And some stuff is just cleaned up versions, like Scene of crime.

This most closely reflects my opinions...I'm really enjoying this!

It is true that on some of the tracks the drum overdub is fairly obvious...BUT it's still reasonably tastefully done.

Put it this way, I'm fussy enough to reach for the bin and toss away a CD if there are overdubs normally.

Here it's hard to complain... hell, I've even listened through the tracks with the most obvious overdubs more than once without flinching!

If anything, while some of the tracks do sound cleaned up - it's normally done to just the right level. Me? I *hate* 'over-cleaned' up music...if anything my one complaint is on a couple of the less cleaned up tracks (which are available in pretty similar quality elsewhere) is there is a rough hiss. But even that's a minor quibble. I'm normally happy with a bit of hiss, and like I say, for the most part it's just right here, rarely too much, rarely too little...

The best thing is hearing tracks like Rubberlegs sounding so POWERFUL!

Also Open Up and Bleed is *very* similar to the Recording Sessions 73 / 'Rubberlegs' LP version, *but* a slightly different take, I only really noticed towards the end...shows how hard Iggy got the band to work if one take sounds so similar to the next! One of the phrases towards the end sounded quicker then I noticed the ending was different. Likethe song Rubberlegs, it sounds the cleanest I've heard it yet, but in a good way, and very powerful.

I got this, along with Move Ass Baby, and Original Punks, just in the last few days, as I'd read enough to convince me they were worth checking out - despite the fact I'm generally trying to clear out duplicates. In this case it was worth it, and it's the older discs I have I hope to eradicate from my collection! Smile

I haven't mentioned Louie Louie yet - this is a great, catchy, punk-pop take on it...the band and Iggy are having fun, but play it straight and well too, it treads that strange no-man's land between fun/throwaway and essential, and I'm glad I've finally got Iggy and The Stooges doing this song, in the studio!

After the revelation of some great Kill City early takes on Original Punks, I feel made up listening to this stuff!
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andrew



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Wed May 26, 2010 4:50 pm

Stranger09 wrote:
Also Open Up and Bleed is *very* similar to the Recording Sessions 73 / 'Rubberlegs' LP version, *but* a slightly different take, I only really noticed towards the end...shows how hard Iggy got the band to work if one take sounds so similar to the next! One of the phrases towards the end sounded quicker then I noticed the ending was different. Likethe song Rubberlegs, it sounds the cleanest I've heard it yet, but in a good way, and very powerful.
I very much doubt it is a different take. As far as I know there are only two rehearsal takes of 'Open Up and Bleed' out there. There is the version which appears on 'Rubberlegs' etc - and which also appears on 'Heavy Liquid' twice(!) - and there is the up tempo version that appears on 'Till The End Of The Night'. Both of these seem to be ultimately sourced from one rehearsal tape and these are the only two takes on the tape apart from another couple that break down quite quickly. I think it is much more likely that the version you're talking about has just been further tinkered with.

Personally, I wouldn't touch any of these tampered with reissues with a barge pole. Also the sad truth is that very few of the Stooges rehearsals out there seem to have been released from the master recordings apparently owned by Bomp. They are generally nth generation leaked copies that have speed and quality issues. I'm hoping that as James Williamson has apparently been working with Bomp on remastering and reissuing Kill City, attention will then be turned to getting these Stooges rehearsals the release they deserve. I'd like to see them released in full, incomplete takes and all, along the lines of the Funhouse Sessions or Easy Action's release of the Morgan Sound Studio and Olympic Studio sessions.
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Wed May 26, 2010 9:03 pm

With respect, I'd try listening to it before you make such judgements.

I've got very good ears for hearing differences...I could be wrong, but sounded a different ending to my ears.

However even if I'm wrong, I'm suggesting you listen anyway...just because on *some* of the tracks an added drumbeat is noticeable (on I'm a Man), on others it is far more subtle...if at all ie could be clever mixing)...as the comments suggest elsewhere on this thread, about half the people who've listened have been impressed - as I have been.
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cantona7



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Wed May 26, 2010 10:03 pm

I hate the more power release, there are overdubs on all of the tracks except I got a right, gimme some skin, I'm sick of you, scene of the crime and tight pants. I bought it for 13 on ebay and was delighted to get most of that back when I sold it. Some German blokes adding overdubs to stooges reheasal tapes in 2009 is no fun at all.
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andrew



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Wed May 26, 2010 11:19 pm

Stranger09 wrote:
With respect, I'd try listening to it before you make such judgements.

I've got very good ears for hearing differences...I could be wrong, but sounded a different ending to my ears.

However even if I'm wrong, I'm suggesting you listen anyway...just because on *some* of the tracks an added drumbeat is noticeable (on I'm a Man), on others it is far more subtle...if at all ie could be clever mixing)...as the comments suggest elsewhere on this thread, about half the people who've listened have been impressed - as I have been.
I certainly wasn't trying to suggest your hearing was at fault. Sorry if it came across that way. I took what you said at face value - that the ending of 'Open Up and Bleed' is different. I just don't think it's likely that this is because it comes from a different take, because, as far as I know, there isn't one. So it seems more likely to me that it is down to the track having been edited somehow, especially as you say the track is otherwise very similar. But, as you say, I haven't heard the ending, although I did listen to the samples on Amazon when this came out. Maybe I should try downloading Spotify and listening to the whole thing if it's still on there.

I didn't like what I heard on the samples, but this doesn't really have anything to do with whether they sound in any way 'better' for the overdubs and treatment. I'd personally just rather hear the tracks in their original form, faithfully sourced from the original tapes. So far we mostly haven't had the chance to do that.
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Thu May 27, 2010 2:19 pm

andrew wrote:

I didn't like what I heard on the samples, but this doesn't really have anything to do with whether they sound in any way 'better' for the overdubs and treatment. I'd personally just rather hear the tracks in their original form, faithfully sourced from the original tapes. So far we mostly haven't had the chance to do that.

Interesting point...I suspect the original tapes are lost? Sad

After all, Iggy and his respective record companies have had umpteen chances at least to release recordings from the original tapes...given Iggy's life back then (see Paul Tryncka's book!), is it any surprise the masters may be a little hard to find! Smile

What I liked in this case, is that besides on some tracks that overdubbing was either noticeable - though not badly done - or suspected, other tracks simply sounded cleaned up, and done well to my ears, to the point that I was very pleased with the results, more than I expected to be.

Basically Rubber Legs, Open Up and Bleed and Johanna sounded like they should have been on Raw Power revamp, in that form - and been the crown jewels of one of the extras CD's, I'd reckon.

I'll do a comparison soon anyway re Open Up and Bleed!
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andrew



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Thu May 27, 2010 8:48 pm

Stranger09 wrote:
Interesting point...I suspect the original tapes are lost? Sad
By 'original tapes' I meant the 1973 rehearsal tapes that James Williamson apparently sold to Greg Shaw of Bomp records in the '70s. Hopefully these tapes are not lost and Bomp records still have them.

Now Bomp have issued some tracks which (probably) come direct from these tapes but a lot of the 1973 rehearsal tracks have never been released by Bomp and, where they have been released by other labels, they appear to be taken from leaked nth generation copies, with consequent loss of quality. I think you can hear this if you compare some of the tracks which have been released both by Bomp and other labels such as Revenge. For example compare 'Raw Power' or 'Head On' on Bomp's 'Year Of The Iguana' with the recordings of the same takes on Revenge's 'My Girl Hates My Heroin' and I think you can hear the drop in quality. (If you don't have 'Year Of The Iguana' I think 'Heavy Liquid' uses the Bomp sources for these two tracks.) OK the quality isn't stellar even on the Bomp versions, but I think this illustrates that we're not hearing a lot of this stuff at its best. That's why I hope someone will get on the case and put out a decent full release of the rehearsaal tapes.
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri May 28, 2010 2:09 pm

Thanks for your comments.

It's helped spur me to finally getting the Iggy / Stooges CD's ready to compare (I had filed them together recently ready to do just that...just fitting it in was proving a problem!). I have now re-listened to Open Up and Bleed on "More Power" : it is the same version it seems...what threw me is it comes to 'more' of an end. However the reason is they didn't just overdub drums on this song, but some guitar too. I still maintain it's not a bad job...it is noticeable (particularly on comparison) but the better sound quality means it's still a fun listen. So you were right anyway on that score : as for the re-dubs, I can see why on reflection some might like them...those who listen to these Iggy tracks religiously (and I did used to far more often than I do manage to these days, much as I still love them) will notice the differences more. However the murkiness - while something I'm often quite happy with - of the originals still means I like the cleaned up More Power...which of course has Money (That's What I want) and Louie Louie Smile

Actually, that reminds me...I was thinking earlier, is it time for an Iggy box set?

Let's face it we've had the Funhouse box and the Raw Power 4 disc set...and a few more rarities / live ones for that matter.

but what about an 'overall' one?

Clearly Iggy's got more control of the catalogue these days and is business minded enough (re the accusations re the 'corporate' nature of Iggy's catalogue these days...well it does seem a change from his anti-rich comments and rants of the past, but as Neil Young once said "is it strange, that I should change?"...I think Iggy's earned his right to real money finally myself). Such a box could get the best official releases and outtakes in one place. A hefty job to organise I admit...
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homesickjameswilliamson
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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri May 28, 2010 3:44 pm

Quote :
Such a box could get the best official releases and outtakes in one place. A hefty job to organise I admit...

I think thats the problem, its too much work (read; money) for very little sales, unless they can whip up publicity for lust for life / idiot - although the guy(s) who did PR for iggy during preliminaires and i assume the raw power rerelease is very good

but the actual units an iggy boxset would shift would be very small, he's konwn for being in the stooges now - which is great obviously, but i would personally love all his albums to be released with outtakes / live shows etc

although if they had to, then just the big ones like lust for life or idiot or american caesur would be great

the EasyAction 1977 boxset was good - although i wish theyd been allowed to remaster and include idiot/LFL tracks as well

the million in prizes 2CD release had remastered tracks from idiot and lust for life and sounded great, the virgin remasters from the early 90s sound quite flat now

dont think we'll get anything now that the focus is on the stooges, but you never know, seeing as one of the last good labels (Rhino) seems to be dying we only have EasyAction and a few other left
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mc

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri May 28, 2010 3:47 pm

Still prefer the Stooges untampered with.

So what's your final verdict on whether they are from a better source or just no-noised with additional instruments?
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andrew



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Fri May 28, 2010 11:07 pm

mc wrote:
So what's your final verdict on whether they are from a better source or just no-noised with additional instruments?
From the samples on Amazon it seems clear that the six 'Rubber Legs' tracks are from the same dodgy sped up source that all the other releases are.
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mc

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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sat May 29, 2010 1:06 pm

andrew wrote:
mc wrote:
So what's your final verdict on whether they are from a better source or just no-noised with additional instruments?
From the samples on Amazon it seems clear that the six 'Rubber Legs' tracks are from the same dodgy sped up source that all the other releases are.

Thanks Andrew, I would have been surprised if Cleopatra of all labels had got a hold of the masters.
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sat May 29, 2010 2:46 pm

They've certainly made them sound clearer...my feeling now is maybe they shouldn't have bothered with the overdubs, now I've got a little past the euphoria of hearing them so clearly. I still like that, but having compared with the originals the overdubs are noticeable. Like I say, they're pretty well done mainly, but simply knowing it's not The Stooges (not entirely so to speak!) taints it a bit.

RE Iggy clean-ups, remasters etc...possibly the wrong thread (again:)) but having listened through a load of Iggy CD's this morning, another Metallic KO might be in order : I have the original CD, the badly mixed 2CD, and the '73 show from James Williamson's master tape. Each disc is essential in some way...I would actually happy buy a "proper" / officially remaster if it's re-done rather than have to patch together my own CD-R of the best of all three releases here...
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saichan



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sun May 30, 2010 7:01 am

Stranger09 wrote:
They've certainly made them sound clearer...my feeling now is maybe they shouldn't have bothered with the overdubs, now I've got a little past the euphoria of hearing them so clearly. I still like that, but having compared with the originals the overdubs are noticeable. Like I say, they're pretty well done mainly, but simply knowing it's not The Stooges (not entirely so to speak!) taints it a bit.

Don't forget that on Facebook James said that More Power was "officially sanctioned" by Pop/Williamson.

Wouldn't it blow our minds if it turned out the guitar/drums overdubs were actually done by James and Scott?

Alas, on that score, I have no further info, just idle conjecture.

Personally, I think More Power is excellent. I resisted it at first, but it has grown on me. Just beefing up the drum sound, which is inaudible on some of the original demos, takes the music into a completely different realm. You could listen to those demos and imagine a "professional" recording that used guitar and vocals in such a rough and ready fashion, but not the drums, which are barely there. I can now listen to More Power and fully imagine what the fourth Stooges album might have sounded like, and for that I'm grateful.
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Anyone even notice this?   Sun May 30, 2010 11:41 pm

Yes.

I wonder if I'm thinking something is slightly tainted when the "right" musicians were drafted in! Smile

I think both mixes (ie the originals and the ones on More Power), are different, and good in different ways I guess.
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