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 Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.

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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:50 pm

'Metallic KO' is my favourite Stooges album (until now). It was the first one that I purchased, and I was hooked on the Stooges after one listen.

I had (probably still have) several different versions on vinyl, but with regard to the CD versions I have been hearing rumours of inferior sound and different speeds.

My question is: Which of the CD versions can be most recommended? I have the double CD release (2 x KO) which I thought was the definitive version, but I have heard there are different versions of this also.

On a related topic: The Wikipedia entry for the 'Heavy Liquid' box set states that it was due to include the complete February '74 show but this was scuppered "for legal reasons". Anyone know the story on this?
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specotron



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:07 pm

The original album was incorrectly pitched and it was fixed for the latest CD re-release. The artificial-sounding bass in previous incarnations is gone while Scott Asheton's drumming and Scott Thurston's piano come through loud and clear. Even with the bass reduction, Ron Asheton's playing sounds correct too and is not buried in the mix. Perhaps of most importance, Iggy Pop sounds more like Iggy Pop. After listening to this new release, it is quite obvious that the pitch of the vocals was previously incorrect.

However, why re-release the original LP version of Metallic KO, (which only featured 3 songs from the "Last Ever Stooges Show" on February 9, 1974 and filled out with another 3 tracks from an October 6, 1973 concert), instead of both shows in their entirety as is the case on the 2-CD set? Why not clean up the also incorrectly pitched complete 2-CD set?

Perhaps the 2-CD set will eventually be pitched correctly and re-released too. But if not, you'll need both... the 2-CD set, incorrectly pitched, and the correctly pitched, recent single CD re-release of the original LP version.

Is there such a things as too much Stooges? Collect 'em all!
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:03 pm

specotron wrote:
The original album was incorrectly pitched and it was fixed for the latest CD re-release. The artificial-sounding bass in previous incarnations is gone while Scott Asheton's drumming and Scott Thurston's piano come through loud and clear. Even with the bass reduction, Ron Asheton's playing sounds correct too and is not buried in the mix. Perhaps of most importance, Iggy Pop sounds more like Iggy Pop. After listening to this new release, it is quite obvious that the pitch of the vocals was previously incorrect.

However, why re-release the original LP version of Metallic KO, (which only featured 3 songs from the "Last Ever Stooges Show" on February 9, 1974 and filled out with another 3 tracks from an October 6, 1973 concert), instead of both shows in their entirety as is the case on the 2-CD set? Why not clean up the also incorrectly pitched complete 2-CD set?

Perhaps the 2-CD set will eventually be pitched correctly and re-released too. But if not, you'll need both... the 2-CD set, incorrectly pitched, and the correctly pitched, recent single CD re-release of the original LP version.

Is there such a things as too much Stooges? Collect 'em all!

So, are you saying that the 1998 Jungle/Freud 70 2 CD edition is not speed corrected?
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neven



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:56 am

there's also a french 2xmetallic k.o.(cd and2xlp) that sounds better tha the jungle version
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:48 am

neven wrote:
there's also a french 2xmetallic k.o.(cd and2xlp) that sounds better that the jungle version

Crap. Can anybody point me in the right direction on this? Could someone list the release that are know to be at the correct speed? Hell, if this is the case that there is all these versions out there and half of them are at the wrong speed/pitch then it stand s to reason that someone EA or BOMP or whoever should offer to pay Michaal Tipton what he deserves for his original recordings and finally do this damn thing right.

Natalie wrote:
Stoogesfan,
there is the myth as you say and then there is the reality.
Metallic K O in all it's many releases did come from Michael Tipton 's recordings. Michael taped both shows. One show was taped from the sound board and the other from two mics at both sides of the stage. BTW, Michael still has the original tapes. The tape that was sold to Skydog was a second generation cassette that James copied from Ron. Ron was the only one who hung on to the tape that Michael gave him.
Natalie

I am really tired of buying CD after CD only to find out they are either not at the right speed/pitch or that they have been bastardized in some way by outsiders trying to make a buck. I am all for,

specotron wrote:
Is there such a things as too much Stooges? Collect 'em all!

but only if it is done right and ultimately benefite the band. Selling crap that isn't even playing at the correct speed only benefits the money sucking scum that care so little for the band and it's fans that they will put out anything from which they can personally profit, no matter how badly screwed up it may be.
Greedy scum bags.


Last edited by ElRoi on Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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iggy-fan
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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:19 am

The remastered 2007 version from Jungle is the best version in my opinion.
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Lucas



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:03 am

Metallic KO is the best of the stooges, wrong speed or not
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coffeepotman



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:15 pm

The original LP is the one I grew up with and to me thats the best version. I do like the 2 CD full show version though.
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:52 pm

iggy-fan wrote:
The remastered 2007 version from Jungle is the best version in my opinion.

The Jungle version I have has a 1998 date and has the claim: "Double-CD version re-mastered from the original tapes, with additional tracks."
So, according to Natalie the claim that it was "re-mastered from the original tapes" is disingenuous since all of the Metallic KO releases were from a second generation cassette unless someone managed to get a hold of Ron's first generation cassette. According to Nat there has never been one made from the original tapes that Michael Tipton's original tapes. So, the only way we are ever going to get a really good version of Metallic KO is for someone to pay Michael for the rights to his tapes and to re-master those. I really can't believe if what Natalie says is true, and I don't doubt her, that either BOMP of EA haven't approached Michael to offer him some sort of deal. I mean hell they could market it as "The first and only version of Metallic KO remastered from the actual Michael Tipton original tapes." I mean shit ever Stooges fan out there would want a copy. I sure as hell would.
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:58 pm

coffeepotman wrote:
The original LP is the one I grew up with and to me thats the best version. I do like the 2 CD full show version though.

The 1998 Jungle version I have is nothing more than the original Metallic KO disc along with the October 6, 1973 Michigan Palace show that is basically the same disc a BOMP's Michigan Palace 10/6/73 release. Which 2 CD version do you have?

ElRoi wrote:
iggy-fan wrote:
The remastered 2007 version from Jungle is the best version in my opinion.

So, is the 2007 Jungle version speed/pitch correct?
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iggy-fan
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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:40 pm

ElRoi wrote:
iggy-fan wrote:
The remastered 2007 version from Jungle is the best version in my opinion.

So, is the 2007 Jungle version speed/pitch correct?

Yes!
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:33 pm

iggy-fan wrote:
ElRoi wrote:
iggy-fan wrote:
The remastered 2007 version from Jungle is the best version in my opinion.

So, is the 2007 Jungle version speed/pitch correct?

Yes!

Thanks. And so the 1998 Jungle version is not speed/pitch corrected. I'm sorry to be such a stickler, but having something that is not playing at the right speed is almost like having something that has been bastardized by outside forces. I just want to have the right one. I hate to by another copy, but if the one I have isn't correct then I will buy the 2007 version.
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:46 pm

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I will certainly get a copy of the 2007 Jungle release.

I agree with ElRoi - EA should get in touch with Michael Tipton and do a deal to use his tapes. There is obviously a big demand for this stuff, otherwise it would not have been released so many times from inferior master tapes. So a definitive 2-disc version from the original tapes would sell by the truckload.

However, this leaves two questions. Firstly, if the entry on the Wikipedia website is correct, it seems as though EA were planning to issue the February '74 show as part of the 'Heavy Liquid' set but were prevented from doing so. Can anyone from EA confirm the story here? Second question: The Bomp CD 'Michigan Palace' - does this have any 'speed / pitch' problems?
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:10 pm

StoogesFan wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I will certainly get a copy of the 2007 Jungle release.

I agree with ElRoi - EA should get in touch with Michael Tipton and do a deal to use his tapes. There is obviously a big demand for this stuff, otherwise it would not have been released so many times from inferior master tapes. So a definitive 2-disc version from the original tapes would sell by the truckload.

However, this leaves two questions. Firstly, if the entry on the Wikipedia website is correct, it seems as though EA were planning to issue the February '74 show as part of the 'Heavy Liquid' set but were prevented from doing so. Can anyone from EA confirm the story here? Second question: The Bomp CD 'Michigan Palace' - does this have any 'speed / pitch' problems?

Agreed on all points. The question of whether or not the BOMP release is correct or not is a good one especially since I have both the Jungle version and the BOMP version. From the looks of the total times on both of them, one of them there is a difference. Jungle's times out at 43:57 and BOMP';s times out at 42:50. Now this could be due to editing diffences as far as each songs length in that BOMP may have chopped a few seconds off here and there. Or it could be the speed?pitch problem. I guess I need to closely listen to both releases and see if there is and see if there is and discernible difference in the sound.
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23rd Express

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:30 pm

I love Metallic KO. It was the first Stooges I think I ever heard and thought it musically marvellous but completely insane and depraved. Haven't listened to it for about 5 years - but 'Head On' remains one of the best ever versions of it, 'Louie Louie' is demented.


An ugly musical document which hints of the parallels of nihilism and post modernist idiocy that were articulated a decade later. The Stooges were always to my ears an industrial band - about music of the oil age.
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francois



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:23 pm

Sorry if this question was already ask on the forum, but does somebody know who sing instead of iggy on "open up and bleed" around 2:50 on M 2XKO ?
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:06 pm

francois wrote:
Sorry if this question was already ask on the forum, but does somebody know who sing instead of iggy on "open up and bleed" around 2:50 on M 2XKO ?

It was most likely Scott Thurston. However, on the February '74 show there were two backing vocal microphones in use (check out 'I Got Nothing) so it cannot be totally certain - although Thurston was certainly one of the backing vocalists for this show also.
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:11 pm

Okay, I have now heard all three issues of this album. The new remaster by Jungle of the original 6-track album is okay but lacks a little clarity.

I think the best way to describe the difference is to think of it as different types of cassette tape. If the 1998 2-CD issue from Jungle sounds as though it was recorded on a chrome tape, then the new 2007 remaster sounds as though it was recorded on an ordinary ferric tape by comparison. The third issue (the French one) sounds like it was recorded on a metal tape and has the clearest sound.

So we now have three distinct versions of this album:

1) The new 2007 remaster that plays at the correct speed but lacks clarity.

2) The 1998 2-CD version that plays at slightly the wrong speed but has better clarity and the most tracks.

3) The French issue that has the best clarity but has less tracks.

This situation is ridiculous! Surely it would be an 'open goal' for Easy Action to contact Michael Tipton and do a deal to use his tapes? Nobody else has contacted him for the past 30-odd years so the chances are good that EA could have a deal tied up before anyone else got in on the action. Imagine a 2-CD unedited version from the original tapes at the correct speed and with the same (or better) clarity than the French CD - wow!

We know EA people visit this forum from time to time. Any chance of a comment? I'm sure Natalie would act as a go-between if asked.
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:01 am

StoogesFan wrote:
Okay, I have now heard all three issues of this album. The new remaster by Jungle of the original 6-track album is okay but lacks a little clarity.

I think the best way to describe the difference is to think of it as different types of cassette tape. If the 1998 2-CD issue from Jungle sounds as though it was recorded on a chrome tape, then the new 2007 remaster sounds as though it was recorded on an ordinary ferric tape by comparison. The third issue (the French one) sounds like it was recorded on a metal tape and has the clearest sound.

So we now have three distinct versions of this album:

1) The new 2007 remaster that plays at the correct speed but lacks clarity.

2) The 1998 2-CD version that plays at slightly the wrong speed but has better clarity and the most tracks.

3) The French issue that has the best clarity but has less tracks.

This situation is ridiculous! Surely it would be an 'open goal' for Easy Action to contact Michael Tipton and do a deal to use his tapes? Nobody else has contacted him for the past 30-odd years so the chances are good that EA could have a deal tied up before anyone else got in on the action. Imagine a 2-CD unedited version from the original tapes at the correct speed and with the same (or better) clarity than the French CD - wow!

We know EA people visit this forum from time to time. Any chance of a comment? I'm sure Natalie would act as a go-between if asked.


So, here's the track lists. What is the deal with Gimme Danger & Rich Bitch being flipped on the 1998 and 2007 Jungle releases. What is the correct order? And why wasn't Raw Power and Head On not included on the 1998 Jungle release while Heavy Liquid and I Got Nothin' weren't included on the 2007 Jungle release? Could they not get all the tracks on the 2007 release and at the correct speed?

1) The new 2007 remaster that plays at the correct speed but lacks clarity.
Raw Power
Head On
Gimme Danger
Rich Bitch
Cock In My Pocket
Iggy Talks
Louie, Louie

2) The 1998 2-CD version that plays at slightly the wrong speed but has better clarity and the most tracks.
Heavy Liquid
I Got Nothin'
Rich Bitch
Gimme Danger
Cock In My Pocket
Louie, Louie

3) The French issue that has the best clarity but has less tracks.
?????
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:49 am

ElRoi wrote:

So, here's the track lists. What is the deal with Gimme Danger & Rich Bitch being flipped on the 1998 and 2007 Jungle releases. What is the correct order? And why wasn't Raw Power and Head On not included on the 1998 Jungle release while Heavy Liquid and I Got Nothin' weren't included on the 2007 Jungle release? Could they not get all the tracks on the 2007 release and at the correct speed?

1) The new 2007 remaster that plays at the correct speed but lacks clarity.
Raw Power
Head On
Gimme Danger
Rich Bitch
Cock In My Pocket
Iggy Talks
Louie, Louie

2) The 1998 2-CD version that plays at slightly the wrong speed but has better clarity and the most tracks.
Heavy Liquid
I Got Nothin'
Rich Bitch
Gimme Danger
Cock In My Pocket
Louie, Louie

3) The French issue that has the best clarity but has less tracks.
?????

Hey Elroi,

the 2CD version also has the October '73 show.


The track list for the French version:

Raw Power
Head On
Gimme Danger
Search & Destroy
Heavy Liquid
Open Up & Bleed
I Got Nothing
Ritch Bitch
Cock In My Pocket
Louie Louie

The last 4 tracks are from February '74 and the rest from October '73.
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Iguanas

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:45 pm

There are two versions of the last concert 9/2/74
Metalic KO version (recorded at 15ips.) and version recorded on cassette (include "Wet my Bed").
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ElRoi

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:10 pm

Yes, the second disc is basically the same performance as BOMP's release "Michigan Palace 10/6/73, correct? What I don't understand is why on the Jungle 1998 release they have the songs "Heavy Liquid" & "I Got Nothin'" and on the 2007 release the have the songs "Raw Power" & "Head On." And they also have "Gimme Danger" & "Rich Bitch" flipped. Any idea about this?
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Iguanas

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:58 am

There are 3 different recordings:

Michigan Palace 06/10/73 - recorded on cassette - Sky Dog, Jungle, Bomb - complete show
Michigan Palace 09/02/74 - recorded on cassette - unreleased - include "Wet my Bed"
Michigan Palace 09/02/74 - recorded with 2 shure audio mics. (master - 15ips. tape) - Sky Dog, Jungle (Ron Asheton's copy - 3 3/4 ips.tape)

Next week starts out my column for the Croatian on-line magazine where I write about music from Detroit. The first article is about the last concert in Michigan (1974) and about the return of James Williamson (includes my short interviews with Michael Tipton and Derek See + private photos by John Catto - 1974).
I can send the link as went out, but article will be in Croatian language.
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LuckyMonkey



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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:31 pm

Hello.

For interest I've just posted an original 1977 review of Metallic KO here.
http://stoogesforum.freeforumboard.net/down-on-the-street-f9/1977-original-metallic-ko-mew-musical-express-uk-review-t1877.htm#30105
Only one version on one format back then..............
LM.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Metallic KO - opinions and help needed.   Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:32 pm

I have the french "Metallic 2xKO"single cd version (cat. no 622322) issued on Skydog & distributed by Melodie. I also have the Bomp "Michigan Palace" 10/6/73. (Cat no. BCD4079)

The french version contains all the songs on the bomp disc, plus a little extra dialogue from the 73 show. The bomp version is noticably better sound quality and runs slightly faster than the skydog version.
There are no 1974 tracks on the bomp version (which has a running time of 42:54)
The french version has both 73 and 74 tracks and a total running time of 70:36
I have not heard the Jungle version. That version (double cd) contains extra tracks to the french version, namely an incomplete"heavy liquid" and "gimme danger", can anyone confirm those two tracks are from the 1974 Michigan Palace show, and is there a complete version of heavy liquid from the 1974 gig anywhere?


Last edited by gazatthebop on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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