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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:48 pm

Aku wrote:
I think the volume on those guitar solo's should KILL everyone in your neighborhood !!

I was going to post something about the balances, remaster/remix, blah, blah, blah. But there's just nothing I can add to that, other than ...

That might just be the best sentence I ever read in my entire life.
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G, F#, E
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:53 pm

Yes the guitar solos should be loud but the drums and bass should at least be audible. When Bowie and Iggy mixed that album it seemed to be an egotistical move to further distance the Ashetons from the band. It wasn't enough for Ig to demote Ron to bass, he also wiped him off the record!

To add insult to injury he said that the drums and bass were badly recorded when they obviously weren't. Then with his mix he pushed his vocals and the guitar up even higher in the mix before swamping it in digital whitenoise.

"Raw Power" could never sound like a standard rock record, its to pumped full of angry attitude for that so I think that being able to hear half of the band members who made that record isn't too much to ask.
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Perdu

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:58 pm

The new dvd that accompanies the RP reissue deconstructs the mix like those VH1 shows. It'll train your ears where to listen. And # 2, perhaps we're projecting a tad?
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jneilnyc

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:58 pm

Aku wrote:


Oh, please, - I hope the VOCALS and GUITAR SOLOS are still FUCKIN OVERWHELMING, cause that's why they call it "RAW" and "POWER" - It's not suppose to have a normal, balanced mix or mastering...That would be a crime against the history of the Stooges and Raw Power and rock n roll...The overwhelming guitars and vocals are special...that's the beauty of the whole record. There's nothing normal about the Stooges.

I'm happy when my ears bleed.

We want our ears to bleed, too. But we also want to feel like we've been run down and dragged by a runaway locomotive, because on a good night that's what the Stooges were really like.

You want RAW POWER? You can't have it without adding MASS x VELOCITY to the mix! Anything less would be (and has been) a crime against the history of the Stooges...
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:08 pm

jneilnyc wrote:
You want RAW POWER? You can't have it without adding MASS x VELOCITY to the mix! Anything less would be (and has been) a crime against the history of the Stooges...

I would go a little further, I think Iggy's "Violent" mix - don't you just love re-branding as a means of retrospective justification - is actually a crime against music.
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StoogeFan



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:24 pm

I understand that this reissue is not a remix but the press release seems to suggest something more dramatic than a typical remaster.
“This 2010 version is newly remastered by Grammy®-winning Sony Music engineer Mark Wilder, and should finally put the lie to years of stigma attached to Bowie ’s mixes. As Dickinson points out, “ Bowie ’s mixes were at the mercy of old-school mastering engineers in 1972 who, quite simply, had never heard anything like Raw Power before, and their final eq proved it.” With Wilder on board, Bowie ’s mixes, unjustly skewered, now turn out to be up-to-the-task and beyond.”

Does this mean:
A) Bowies mix was actually more balanced/more audible and the engineers buggered it up.
B) It’s just hyperbole on Sony’s part and this is a typical remaster (overall better sound and volume, same balance).
C) I am completely out to lunch for ever suggesting that the original Raw Power mix was in any way flawed.

Perdu - If by projecting you mean wishful thinking your probably right.
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jneilnyc

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:27 pm

Eh, it was a good idea, poorly executed.

But then that could be said of the original Bowie mix, too (though of course I mean it's poor only in the sense that you can't hear Scott and Ron's full contribution). It's a credit to Iggy and James and the great songs that it still holds up despite that fact.

Iggy's mix didn't really solve the problems with the original mix, and it created new ones in the process.
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:38 pm

Perdu wrote:
The new dvd that accompanies the RP reissue deconstructs the mix like those VH1 shows. It'll train your ears where to listen. And # 2, perhaps we're projecting a tad?

Thanks for telling me that at long last I can have some instructions on how to use my ears in regards to audio, for years at just been holding up Mick Rock photos of Iggy (thankfully the same pictures in his book will be used in this set) to my ears hoping that by carefully tilting them I could get a different form of perspective, maybe somewhere between isometric and oblique but alas it was a futile attempt. I've ended up only using my ears to eat Iggy brand popcorn for the 17 years of my feeble exitance.

So thank you for letting me know that this "free tuition" will be included on a highly overpriced set that you have, as you got it for free, but I wont be able to afford due to ridiculous postage charges.

Finally my sweetest friend (see, a NIN refference just for you there) I dont think asking for a mix of an album where we can hear the whole band is too much to ask for. I will just not go with "Iggy's endorsed this lets buy it!" if this were the case I would have spent my time trying to look at the artwork to "Instinct" with my ears.
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:04 pm

If you think taking analogue tapes recorded in 1972, and then completely drowning them in digital distortion past the point where the original sounds and tones are completely lost, is a good idea poorly executed, we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, step one would've been turning the bass and drums up, as in "in the mix", but Iggy, in his infinite wisdom, clearly didn't think that was worth doing.

Iggy's-mix should've had a sticker on the front that read "Hey Kids!, I sounded just like what you like, only more so!". The revisionism even going as far as withdrawing the original version from sale for over a decade, so that anyone coming to the album for the first time had nothing else to compare it to.

I guess it's just lucky those tapes didn't surface at the height of the Rave boom, or we'd be debating if adding the "bangin' beats" and synth parts had really been a good idea.
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krugersoldier

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:12 pm

I dont agree with most of this at all. The original vinyl release of Raw Power is perfect, the sludgy sound and the guitars jumping out of the fog made this record the legend that it is. David Thomas of Pere Ubu talking about Smile by the Beach Boys once said that the greatest version of that record was the one in the minds of the fans, not in the real record. Raw Power was fascinating for 35 years because you can use your imagination.
I love the original the most but I also think Iggys remix is perfectly valid, the fans on this board are not the grunge kiddy Soundgarden audience that Iggy tried (and succeeded) in reaching with his 1990's version. He is a smart guy and knew how powerful this record was in comparison to the bands being lauded in the early 90's. It might be worth considering that a lot of the big audience the Stooges now have is exactly because they heard Iggys remaster, of the 30'000 at the Sao Paulo gig for instance probably 29'000 have that CD.
Of course i am also thrilled to receive another great and different sounding version of this supreme record but it wont stop me enjoying the other versions, I still even now pull out "Rough Power" at least once a month and enjoy the hell out of it pig
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:13 pm

StoogeFan wrote:


“ As Dickinson points out, “ Bowie ’s mixes were at the mercy of old-school mastering engineers in 1972 who, quite simply, had never heard anything like Raw Power before, and their final eq proved it.”

- final eq means, - sound, not balance. You'd have to remix the album to change the balance between guitar solos and the drums, and bass. There's one thing I have to point out: - I own a copy of the orginal vinyl version of the Raw Power (Bowie mix) and a old CD release of the Bowie mix ... and the vinyl sounded better than the CD. The orginal vinyl had better sound = better mastering job. I always listen to my vinyl and not the CD.

I hope the new one is ...a typical remaster (overall better sound and volume, same balance), cause there's nothing wrong with Bowie's mix. It's great, historic and wild, and weird as hell (- I know you dont hear Ron Ashton so well, but so what - it's still one of the greateast albums ever)

. ...God, I own Bowie mix on vinyl, on CD, I got Iggy's...so called "Violent Mix" and early rough mixes and now I have to get this new re-issue to get those bonus tracks...I must be crazy.

How many times do I have to buy this freakin album?
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:16 pm

krugersoldier wrote:
I dont agree with most of this at all. The original vinyl release of Raw Power is perfect, the sludgy sound and the guitars jumping out of the fog made this record the legend that it is. David Thomas of Pere Ubu talking about Smile by the Beach Boys once said that the greatest version of that record was the one in the minds of the fans, not in the real record. Raw Power was fascinating for 35 years because you can use your imagination.
I love the original the most but I also think Iggys remix is perfectly valid, the fans on this board are not the grunge kiddy Soundgarden audience that Iggy tried (and succeeded) in reaching with his 1990's version. He is a smart guy and knew how powerful this record was in comparison to the bands being lauded in the early 90's. It might be worth considering that a lot of the big audience the Stooges now have is exactly because they heard Iggys remaster, of the 30'000 at the Sao Paulo gig for instance probably 29'000 have that CD.
Of course i am also thrilled to receive another great and different sounding version of this supreme record but it wont stop me enjoying the other versions, I still even now pull out "Rough Power" at least once a month and enjoy the hell out of it pig

I agree. amen to that.
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jneilnyc

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:55 pm

Petrie Terrace wrote:
If you think taking analogue tapes recorded in 1972, and then completely drowning them in digital distortion past the point where the original sounds and tones are completely lost, is a good idea poorly executed, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I think the idea was to give the album its nuts back. I think the way Iggy went about it - which you spell out pretty well - is clearly wrong, so like it or not, I think we'll have to disagree to disagree.
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:03 am

jneilnyc wrote:
I think the idea was to give the album its nuts back. I think the way Iggy went about it - which you spell out pretty well - is clearly wrong, so like it or not, I think we'll have to disagree to disagree.

Agreed.

(Though I think the reasoning behind it was a lot more cynical than that) Suspect
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TeddyB1018



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:21 am

Whatever the above discussion, the new reissue is a remaster of the Bowie mix, not a remix. When one listens to the Legacy version, Ron's bass is more powerful and defined but the vocals and guitar screeches still jump out, as is characteristic of the Bowie mix. It's likely that the original mastering cut for the 1973 vinyl had to reduce the bass, as was often true for vinyl LP's. The original CD of the Bowie mix probably did not come from the master tapes. What this adds up to is that the new Legacy CD is the best sounding version of the "creative" Bowie mix that has been released. It retains the unusual in-your-face vocals and lead guitar while still managing to have a stronger rhythm section than heard on the original LP. For me, it's the best version of the album I've heard, and I've been listening to it for 37 years.
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StoogeFan



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:45 am

Thanks for the info, I can stop obsessing over this now.
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Perdu

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:40 am

I don't remember the online biography of every poster here, so I don't expect anyone to remember that I once stated I'm not a professional sound technician nor a musician, so no flaming intended. I have the advance copies and dvd, and I like 'em. cherry
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trailerborn

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:00 am

Can anybody w/ an advance copy tell if the re-mixes are the same as those played on the Mike Watt/James Williamson podcast a few months ago? I thought those sounded great.
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:31 am

trailerborn wrote:
Can anybody w/ an advance copy tell if the re-mixes are the same as those played on the Mike Watt/James Williamson podcast a few months ago? I thought those sounded great.
Didn't know about this! Is the podcast still online anywhere?
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:02 pm

mark wrote:

Didn't know about this! Is the podcast still online anywhere?

I think you can still find it:
Watt From Pedro Show (Mike Watt's radio show) can be heard through I Tunes.
Search for "Watt From Pedro Show with James Williamson" - I found the podcast through I Tunes...I hope this helps.
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:03 pm

You can find the link on this site somewhere. It's an audio of Mike Watt interviewing Williamson over dinner. I believe it took place in San Paulo the day before the reunion gig. The interview is interspersed with a few Raw Power re-mixed tracks that Williamson gave to Watt. I'll dig up a link after work if someone hasn't beaten me to it.
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:40 am

Perdu wrote:
I don't remember the online biography of every poster here, so I don't expect anyone to remember that I once stated I'm not a professional sound technician nor a musician, so no flaming intended. I have the advance copies and dvd, and I like 'em. cherry

Brilliant that you love your set which you are obviously best to judge, as you spent no money on it.

I do not remember that post and even if it did I would not feel it was a valid excuse to be utterly patronising somewhere else. I play guitar in a band and coincidentally have working ears suprising as that may be. As most people with working ears are able to do, I am able to listen to sounds and make judgements about them and do not need an instructional DVD on an overpriced padded-out boxset to do this..

Posting an arrogant comment is not unintentional "flaming" its just being rude. If you honestly want to sell this set (as you've been trying to do with all your posts) then maybe you shouldn't be such a snob towards the people who will actually have to pay money if they want to listen to it.

Either you have stock in Sony or your Robert Matheu's agent.
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Perdu

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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:13 am

Neither, and I ordered one deluxe set as well since advance copies don't have the graphics. study


Last edited by Perdu on Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Sat Mar 20, 2010 2:05 pm

trailerborn wrote:
You can find the link on this site somewhere. It's an audio of Mike Watt interviewing Williamson over dinner. I believe it took place in San Paulo the day before the reunion gig. The interview is interspersed with a few Raw Power re-mixed tracks that Williamson gave to Watt. I'll dig up a link after work if someone hasn't beaten me to it.

Here you go:

http://www.twfps.com/pages/show.php?sid=212

During the first 2 hours (it's a 3 hour show) you get the interview with JW plus 'Shake Appeal' and 'Death Trip' from the latest remaster. There is also the live version of 'Raw Power' from the first reunion show in Brazil.
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PostSubject: Re: raw power reissue   Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:29 pm

This will be worth it! The Raw Power Box set sounds Awesome! I also like the 2 cd set MorePower that was released a few months ago. Good sound on that one.
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