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 Raw Power Embassy Reels?

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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:09 am

The so-called 'Embassy Reels' contain Iggy's mix of the entire album ---

Stooges fan, I shall disagree. Gimmie Danger on the embassy cassette as the same echo at the end from that box Iggy talks about in the liner notes, clearly pointing out it was Bowie who used it in his mix.
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:24 pm

Okay, it seems that I will need to go through this step-by-step.

In 1973, Iggy presented his final mix of Raw Power to Mainman. This was rejected and the tapes were consigned to the vaults. These are the tapes now referred to as the 'Embassy Reels'. They were never used.

Bowie was called in to remix the album and his mix (not surprisingly) was accepted. Iggy insisted that his original mix of Search & Destroy was used on the album, and thus we had a master tape for the pressing plant which consisted of Iggy's 'Search & Destroy' along with the other Bowie-mixed tracks. This was the tape used for the first print-run. I suspect that Mainman only agreed to include the original Search & Destroy to placate Iggy, and kept the initial print run purposely small for that reason.

Subsequent to this, Bowie's mix of Search & Destroy replaced Iggy's on the master. It was either spliced onto the beginning of the tape or else a completely new master was made. Without looking at the tape itself it is impossible to tell. The point is that this master tape was then used as the basis for all pressings other than that small initial print run. This included those subsequently released on the Embassy label.

Quite how or why Sundazed have seemingly released a mono version is unclear. It could simply be a fault in the mastering, or they may even have been provided with a mono master tape by accident. It is also theoretically possible that they were provided with the wrong master. Whatever, it is quite likely that this version will not stay on the market for very long, so it may be wise to snap one up while they are still available. I certainly intend doing so!

I hope this clears it up.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:37 pm

Iggy original mixes never used?What about the mixes on rough power?
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:46 pm

StoogesFan, what's your source for any of this information? Or is it just guesswork?

What makes you think that the Embassy Reels are Iggy's mix? Everything I've seen suggests that they are simply the masters for the 1977 Embassy reissue of the album - which seems to be exactly the same as the original, just EQ'd differently (see the samples elsewhere on this thread).

Why do you think that the alt mix of Search & Destroy that's on the earlier editions of Raw Power is Iggy's mix? It sounds nothing like his mixes that are on Rough Power/the WABX tape, and rather a lot like the rest of Bowie's mixes on the album. Indeed, Iggy specifically says in the 1974 Creem interview here that he thought Bowie "did a good job on 'Search and Destroy.'"

I know you're trying to help clear things up here, but conjecture presented as fact is just going to muddy the waters even more.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:56 pm

It's simplier than it seems and it's evidence based!Stooges/iggy original mix is the one on
rough power.All the rest is pure bowie,just listen to the effects he added(gimme danger,penetration,i need somebody.....).Finally we got 2 different mixes from that era and nothing more.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:49 pm

boogie, it is not exactly as easy as that.

For the other 7 songs you seem to be right.

But for "Search.." it is different. Did you see the graphics I posted earlier in this thread?
The embassy cassette one shows clear bassguitar and bass-drum. It's not there on either
Bowie LP mix, nore on the 80ies CD mix (and not on legacy too..)

This is more than just EQ-ing. You can try and boost the bottom end of the bowie mix
and still have not this clear bass work you got on the cassette. I think that is the proof
that indeed this is another mix. Because you can't bring out clear sound out of literally nothing.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:36 pm

Outburst you're right we got two iggy versions of S&D,
both with swordfighting and weird EQ(or stuff like that i'm not a sound eng).
Let's face it,there's virtually no limit to the number of alternate mixes they could have done back in the days,but we know the guys ended with a definitive mix that was rejected.Where is that version?I'd say is on rough power(minus shake appeal).I don't think there are many more definitive mixes of rp out there.
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:57 pm

Right, a number of questions to answer so I'll go through them one at a time:

Q: "What about Rough Power"?

A: I was in direct contact with Greg Shaw around the time he was putting out his 'Iguana Chronicles' series, so this information comes directly from him. Rough Power was compiled from a box of mostly unlabelled cassette tapes that James Williamson had. They are early mixes, but not necessarily 'Original Stooges mixes' as stated on the CD. This was simply assumed by Greg. Iggy mixed the album several times before providing the final tapes to Mainman. It is logical to assume that Williamson kept copies of some mixes for himself. If you listen to some of the tracks on this CD, you will hear thay they are identical mixes to other included tracks - but with added affects such as reverb.


Q: "What makes you think the Embassy reels are Iggy's mix"?

A: Only two people ever mixed Raw Power onto a 2-track master tape. One is Iggy Pop, the other is David Bowie. The Embassy reels are not the Bowie mix.


Q: "What makes you think the alt. mix of S&D on the earlier versions of Raw Power is Iggy's mix"?

A: Because Iggy himself said so! I have not kept most of the old magazines which contained Iggy interviews, but I remember reading one of them where he talked about Bowie mixing Raw Power and Iggy distinctly said 'I demanded they keep my original mix of Search & Destroy because I love that song so much'. If someone has a decent collection of magazine interviews perhaps they could look it up.


Q: "It sounds nothing like the WABX mix"?

A: Well why the hell would it? As I said before, the WABX tape is strongly rumoured to be a 'monitor mix'. This effectively means that it was the very first mix, one that simply 'evolved' as the band were listening to the playback. The later version that Iggy presented to Mainman was significantly different.


A word to finish: I don't do 'conjecture presented as fact'. Where something is opinion or conjecture I will state as much. I present information as fact only when I have reasonable grounds to do so, either as a result of reading printed articles or - as with Greg Shaw - following direct contact with relevant people.
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:34 pm

StoogesFan wrote:
A: Only two people ever mixed Raw Power onto a 2-track master tape. One is Iggy Pop, the other is David Bowie. The Embassy reels are not the Bowie mix.
I'll ask again - what makes you think the Embassy reels are not the Bowie mix? It's been stated time and time again that the Embassy LP is just the Bowie mix mastered differently, and I'm yet to see or hear any evidence that suggests otherwise.
Quote :
Q: "What makes you think the alt. mix of S&D on the earlier versions of Raw Power is Iggy's mix"?
A: Because Iggy himself said so!
He also said (or, at least, very strongly implied) the exact opposite - see the Creem interview I linked to above.
Quote :

Q: "It sounds nothing like the WABX mix"?
A: Well why the hell would it? As I said before, the WABX tape is strongly rumoured to be a 'monitor mix'.
Rumoured by whom? And when?
Quote :
This effectively means that it was the very first mix, one that simply 'evolved' as the band were listening to the playback. The later version that Iggy presented to Mainman was significantly different.
How do you know? Have you heard the tape that Iggy presented to Mainman?
Quote :
A word to finish: I don't do 'conjecture presented as fact'.
Dude, you did it 5 or 6 times just in that post above! You're unstoppable!
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:00 pm

OUTBURST wrote:
This is more than just EQ-ing. You can try and boost the bottom end of the bowie mix
and still have not this clear bass work you got on the cassette. I think that is the proof
that indeed this is another mix. Because you can't bring out clear sound out of literally nothing.

If I am not mistaken, I read that the bass and drums were recorded on the same track, whereas guitar and vocals were on separate tracks. Is this rumor? Hell, I may have even read it on here somewhere. It would make a lot of sense why the rhythm section is buried in practically every mix and version of the album, including Iggy's rebastard...errr...I mean remaster.
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:09 pm

I'm starting to think this is a wind-up. Okay, here we go:

"I'll ask again - what makes you think the Embassy reels are not the Bowie mix? It's been stated time and time again that the Embassy LP is just the Bowie mix mastered differently, and I'm yet to see or hear any evidence that suggests otherwise."

Okay then, try this: Bruce Dickinson transcribed the Embassy Reels for the latest reissue. I direct you to his words as to what was on those reels: "It was a completely alternate mix of the entire album." Is that evidence enough for you?


"He also said (or, at least, very strongly implied) the exact opposite - see the Creem interview I linked to above."

So what? It changes nothing. Fact: Iggy said, in print, that he demanded Mainman keep his original mix of S&D for the album. Fact: Early pressings of Raw Power do indeed have a different mix of this track than subsequent pressings. To me it seems obvious, but if you can provide an alternative explanation please go ahead.


"Rumoured by whom? And when?"

That's a silly question. Rumoured by: Stooges fans. When? Over the last 37 years! The 'monitor mix' theory is by far the most likely, as the lack of fade-outs on the tracks show. Again, if you have a better idea......


"How do you know? Have you heard the tape that Iggy presented to Mainman"?

Let's consider the facts here. It is a matter of record that Iggy presented one master tape to Mainman. This was rejected. The tape reels, as per standard industry practice, would have been sent to the vaults as they were still the property of Mainman/CBS regardless of their acceptability. David Bowie provided a new master that was accepted. Suddenly, 37 years later, tape reels with a 'completely alternate mix' of Raw Power are discovered in the vaults. Doesn't logic therefore suggest that this must be the rejected mix by Iggy? After all, where else could it have come from?
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:44 pm

If I am not mistaken, I read that the bass and drums were recorded on the same track, whereas guitar and vocals were on separate tracks. Is this rumor? Hell, I may have even read it on here somewhere. It would make a lot of sense why the rhythm section is buried in practically every mix and version of the album, including Iggy's rebastard...errr...I mean remaster.[/quote]

Taken from the houndblog:

Worked on the current reissue. Got to listen to the basic tracks. It's 16 track. They used about 10 for the basics and a few more for overdubs. The performances are quite consistent. There is nothing wrong with the recording of the bass and drums.
My associate was deeply involved with Iggy's remix and its digital distortion. Makes him cringe.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:43 pm

Stooges fan, appreciate your input.

I agree with the theory / fact on the S&D different mixes.

However for the rest of the LP, embassy mix, how can you explain the ending of Gimme Danger on the embassy cassette, is using the exact same echo effect as the one on the Bowie mixed disc, if this is an Iggy mix of the LP ? Iggy specifies, both in the liner notes of his remix, and in the recent DVD documentary on disc 4 of the SE as this trick being exclusive to Bowie (I think the name is the "Cube").

So if we listen to him, there cannot be an Iggy mix with the Cube effect at the end of Gimmie Danger because he says Bowie came up with the tool and used it exclusively on his mix.

So the embassy cassette, and I assume the 7 tracks excluding S&D, are either an alternate Bowie mix made the same day, or the same mix mastered differently and with the correct EQ where you can hear drum & bass.

It cannot be an Iggy mix (unless of course Iggy remembers it wrong).

I'm really bummed that the reissue sounds as flat and as close as the old CD before, save some clean up and re-EQ, whereas the Embassy discs offers us a Raw Power with thumping bass and drums that are nowhere to be hear on the Legacy reissue. I wish someone listened to both tapes, and made the switch. Everyone would have applauded this version as the one correctly mastered.
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:26 pm

seventeen wrote:
Stooges fan, appreciate your input.

I agree with the theory / fact on the S&D different mixes.

However for the rest of the LP, embassy mix, how can you explain the ending of Gimme Danger on the embassy cassette, is using the exact same echo effect as the one on the Bowie mixed disc, if this is an Iggy mix of the LP ? Iggy specifies, both in the liner notes of his remix, and in the recent DVD documentary on disc 4 of the SE as this trick being exclusive to Bowie (I think the name is the "Cube").


Seventeen, I can answer that one. As I stated in my earlier post, the so-called 'Embassy Reels' were never used as master tapes. Only Search & Destroy (possibly Raw Power too, although I have not personally heard this) came out on original pressings of the Raw Power album. So, although the album was released on the Embassy label it still used the Bowie mix of the other tracks.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:33 pm

StoogesFan wrote:
thus we had a master tape for the pressing plant which consisted of Iggy's 'Search & Destroy' along with the other Bowie-mixed tracks. This was the tape used for the first print-run. I suspect that Mainman only agreed to include the original Search & Destroy to placate Iggy, and kept the initial print run purposely small for that reason.

Subsequent to this, Bowie's mix of Search & Destroy replaced Iggy's on the master.


I'm still unclear then how the UK copy which i bought within a week or two of it coming does not to have the 'Iggy' S&D mix unless they ahd already made the masters switch by the time the UK copy was pressed. If there is a 'first early' pressing then i presume that it has a different matrix number. Does anyone have the number, please? Has anyone even seen the 'first early' pressing?

StoogesFan wrote:
Quite how or why Sundazed have seemingly released a mono version is unclear. It could simply be a fault in the mastering, or they may even have been provided with a mono master tape by accident. It is also theoretically possible that they were provided with the wrong master. Whatever, it is quite likely that this version will not stay on the market for very long, so it may be wise to snap one up while they are still available. I certainly intend doing so!

I didn't mean to imply that the Sundazed is mono but like Mark states above the mix is very mono-like. And it is not simply a reEQ'd CBS 1973 mix. A number of tracks of the Sundazed LP are different to the 1973 LP. I'd like to know if it sounds like the 'Embassy'.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:37 pm

StoogesFan.

Here is the Sundazed rip, if it helps to clear anything up.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:55 pm

[quote="mr.datsun"]StoogesFan.

Here is the Sundazed rip, if it helps to clear anything up.

There's something wrong with that rip,it's like the stereo version with one channel off!
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:57 pm

seventeen wrote:
Stooges fan, appreciate your input.

I agree with the theory / fact on the S&D different mixes.

However for the rest of the LP, embassy mix, how can you explain the ending of Gimme Danger on the embassy cassette, is using the exact same echo effect as the one on the Bowie mixed disc, if this is an Iggy mix of the LP ? Iggy specifies, both in the liner notes of his remix, and in the recent DVD documentary on disc 4 of the SE as this trick being exclusive to Bowie (I think the name is the "Cube").

So if we listen to him, there cannot be an Iggy mix with the Cube effect at the end of Gimmie Danger because he says Bowie came up with the tool and used it exclusively on his mix.

So the embassy cassette, and I assume the 7 tracks excluding S&D, are either an alternate Bowie mix made the same day, or the same mix mastered differently and with the correct EQ where you can hear drum & bass.

It cannot be an Iggy mix (unless of course Iggy remembers it wrong).

I'm really bummed that the reissue sounds as flat and as close as the old CD before, save some clean up and re-EQ, whereas the Embassy discs offers us a Raw Power with thumping bass and drums that are nowhere to be hear on the Legacy reissue. I wish someone listened to both tapes, and made the switch. Everyone would have applauded this version as the one correctly mastered.

Seventeen - so are you saying that the new Legacy remix/remaster really doesn't sound any better than the original vinyl version as released int he 70's. If so - this blows chunks. Having read the interview with JW in Clash magazine - I was under the impression that added more "umph" to the bass and drums and overall sound.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:04 pm

The new legacy remaster is like a 70's vinyl copy in crazy condition!Plus it's cheaper and impossible to wear out!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:06 pm

That Sundazed rip was done incorrectly. For some reason the files are actually mono. Not just sounding mono, the MP3s are encoded as mono. Click info on one and you'll see. There might be proper rips out there somewhere, but I don't know where. If you got to Sundazed's sight and look up Raw Power, it has 30 sec clips of each song, not in mono and all sounding like the Bowie mix.


It seems that the two "Embassy" tracks on the deluxe set are also just the Bowie mixes, so that's two more that we know aren't a different mix. Anyone able to post a quick clip of each track? I don't have an advanced set, but a friend brought his over and my initial findings were that they are just the Bowie mixes. I believe this whole "Embassy" rumor that has been passed down for years started w/ someone noticing the different mix of S&D on the cassette or possibly an LP (though we haven't found which one yet) and they thought the whole thing was a different mix. Now we actually unfolding this and so far the only proof of a different mix is S&D on that UK cassette.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:08 pm

I have just played a cdr transfer of an early UK cassette of Raw Power, the catalogue number of the cassette is 40-32083 and has the tracks I Need Somebody and Gimme Danger swapped in the running order.
I also have the 1988 US CD CK32111 and the about to be released Legacy edition of Raw Power.
I have played all three today on two occassions and in my opinion they are all the same mix but the cassette sounds better than the other two, more bass and drums (due to mastering?) but keeping the bitchin' vocal and screaching guitar.
Yesterday i downloaded the cassette files posted above and listened to those, this second cassette version (from a different cassette source) sounds much better than that one too. I will convert to flac and upload it in the coming days.
The only problem with this latest original cassette (transfered to cdr) version is it it running 0.7% slower (for the first 90 seconds) and 0.8% slower after that, than the CD. I intend to correct that issue before converting to flac
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:37 pm

Quote :
If so - this blows chunks.

Radiobirdman73 , I heard the "Legacy" release today. It really is not different from my
1980ies Bowie Mix-CD. about 1db louder you could imagine a tiny bit more bass.
The rest is the same.

Even Search & Destroy has a phase defect that is both present on my Bowie 1989 CD mix
AND on the new Legacy remix. The Legacy release is a fucking rip off.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:52 pm

I agree that if you want an improvement on the 1988 (1989 is being mentioned a lot but it was 1988) Bowie mix cd you will most probably be disappointed
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:56 pm

gazatthebop wrote:
I agree that if you want an improvement on the 1988 (1989 is being mentioned a lot but it was 1988) Bowie mix cd you will most probably be disappointed

if this ends up being the case (I ordered the Deluxe so won't hear it till the 23rd) - i'm certainly looking forward to hearing the version gazatthebop promises to post.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:57 pm



this says 1989. But propably still the same.

Man we should collect all this info in a wiki article or something



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