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 Raw Power Embassy Reels?

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neven



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:49 pm

jpstooges wrote:
mr.datsun wrote:
jpstooges wrote:
NOS300B wrote:
Would it be possible to post the matrix number for the pictured RAW POWER LP?
Matrix numbers are S 65586 A1 & S 65586 B1

Interesting – same matrix nos. as mine. Does it have PN-2 scratched on the lead out of side 2?

I'm beginning to wonder if I do have the alt mix of S&D!

Yes, it has PN-2 (only on side 2)

I have thisversion with the b/w iggy inner,so it must be the original u.k.first pressing?
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:38 pm

neven wrote:
I have thisversion with the b/w iggy inner,so it must be the original u.k.first pressing?

Yep
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:12 am

I just listened to jpstooges copy and it's the same as mine. This is the only version I have ever known (discounting the 1997 mix). I only listened to S&D.

Now I was about to say that there is no difference between this and any other version I have heard but then listened to the last 30 seconds of the LP S&D and compared it with the 7" single Columbia 4-45877 rip. Then I heard the difference that is not just the bright mastering on the single.

The main difference I hear between this original LP version AND other versions is the echo at around 3.04 on the vocals. It seems to be the best surefire way of spotting a difference. I now see that others have mentioned this before.

When I relistened to the Legacy that vocal treatment seems to be missing. So I would say that the Legacy version and the 1998 CD and the 7" single all miss the echo on the vocals and are therefore the same mix. I haven't heard an Embassy version so I could not say.

But I could not really surmise that the with-echo version is so different that I would think it was a unique Iggy mix. I would say that that is unlikely. I think they are both mixed much the same apart from the vocal. Other differences in sound quality could easily be mastering differences. They sound more or less mixed by the same ear, or same person to me.

I do wonder also whether there really are two versions of the 1st pressing? Is this likely when the different version (ie. without echo) is known to have shown up on the 1977 Embassy issue.

Just my observations and thoughts.
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jpstooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:34 am

To sum up a bit, focusing on Search and Destroy, I'd say 4 different mixes can be found. The story so far:

- the original so-called "before-Bowie" mix found on bootlegs (Duet At The Mantra, Shake Appeal, Garden Of Evil, check bootlegs section) and –in lesser sound quality- on Rough Power CD.

- the Bowie mix, found on original US LP and reissues, also on CD (including the Legacy CD), some cassettes (eg. the one posted by gazatthebop), 7" mono/stereo single, etc. Differences found between these versions are subtle and are due [I think] from (re)mastering issues or use of copies rather than first generation master tapes. 1977 Embassy LP sounds different –not better- because it's poorly mastered.

- Iggy 1997 remix (CD and LP),

- UK cassette (boogie link) and original CBS UK LP mix, the best version with kick-ass drums & wide stereo effect!
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:34 am

jpstooges wrote:
To sum up a bit, focusing on Search and Destroy, I'd say 4 different mixes can be found. The story so far:

- the original so-called "before-Bowie" mix found on bootlegs (Duet At The Mantra, Shake Appeal, Garden Of Evil, check bootlegs section) and –in lesser sound quality- on Rough Power CD.

- the Bowie mix, found on original US LP and reissues, also on CD (including the Legacy CD), some cassettes (eg. the one posted by gazatthebop), 7" mono/stereo single, etc. Differences found between these versions are subtle and are due [I think] from (re)mastering issues or use of copies rather than first generation master tapes. 1977 Embassy LP sounds different –not better- because it's poorly mastered.

- Iggy 1997 remix (CD and LP),

- UK cassette (boogie link) and original CBS UK LP mix, the best version with kick-ass drums & wide stereo effect!

jpstooges,

you are right about the differences ( as in your pm to me). I a/b'd my original LP version with the US stereo single/Legacy version on headphones after I wrote my previous (and mistaken!) post and I suddenly understood. The bass end is totally missing on the stereo single AND the Legacy remaster. NOw I understand the controversy and why the search for the original LP.

Surely the non bass single mix - that ended up on later LP pressings was a mistake. Or it was made that way for the single release. That it ended up on the Raw Power LP is a complete mystery and I never realised that another version of the LP was out there.

But I might differ in my opinion to others - because I still think the full-bass version with vocal echo is a Bowie mix. All the tracks on Raw Power LP sound that way don't they ? – e.g Penetration also has that reverb on the vocals. The bass-reduced single version is the odd one out and therefore might just be a single mix, a mistake/non-finished mix or possibly a non-Bowie mix.

I never realised that the Legacy remaster CD has what I consider to be the wrong version of S&D !
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ziggysane



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:30 pm

I just finished listening to the UK LP version. Wow. That bass is a revelation. Nice Rip by the way: full frequency range with a crankable volume level (Thank you for not normalizing! That's what my volume knob is for. Smile)

So, has it been confirmed that the US LPs only ever had the one mix of "S&D", and that the UK LPs are the ones that had the bass-less mix subbed in later on?
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LuckyMonkey



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:09 pm

jpstooges wrote:
mr.datsun wrote:
jpstooges wrote:
NOS300B wrote:
Would it be possible to post the matrix number for the pictured RAW POWER LP?
Matrix numbers are S 65586 A1 & S 65586 B1

Interesting – same matrix nos. as mine. Does it have PN-2 scratched on the lead out of side 2?

I'm beginning to wonder if I do have the alt mix of S&D!

Yes, it has PN-2 (only on side 2)

Wow. Kick ass. Just been in my garage & dug out my UK copy of Raw Power. Exactly the same. I bought mine in 1974. £2.13 p.
I need to spin it on the turntable to see what I have.
I'd be very surprised even this ever went to a 2nd UK pressing as I think it was deleted in around 1975. I'd love to be proved wrong.
I recall Virgin Records having copies in the UK when punk hit in 1977 but they were Dutch & had a different label.
I didn't buy one & thefore can't say what mix was on there.
I've got the Simply Vinyl re-issue but I've never played it.
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:04 pm

LuckyMonkey wrote:
I'd be very surprised even this ever went to a 2nd UK pressing as I think it was deleted in around 1975.

My understanding was that Raw Power, like many other low selling albums in the UK at that time, was sunk by the OPEC crisis.

It was never really pressed in major quantities to begin with, and when the price of oil went through the roof a lot of "minor" albums on the major labels were just allowed to drop out of catalogue.

It was re-issued in the UK, with the "new" S&D mix, in 1977 - as was "Back In The USA" by The MC5- but Dutch copies were imported too, as were French copies of the first two albums.

(After a few minutes pause I've started thinking "Was the UK re-issue '77?", I'm sure it was, anyone?)
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:56 pm

I don't know why, in france at the times, many copies of the first two LPs were in the bargain bins. Was it because there was a french pressing in overstock ?
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:01 pm

I always assumed it was because they were still in print in France, but maybe not, maybe they were just "dead stock"? French gatefold pressings of "Fun House", butterfly label, would turn up as new stock in London stores well into the mid-eighties, but I was never too sure if they were current pressings or just more old stock.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:36 pm

Hmm, I'm guessing tons of those were overstock, they probably were bought back by a "soldeur", and the kept ditching them until he was out, making some sales in the UK etc. Let me tell you, if you liked Raw Power in 1977 in France, you were a "fuckin faggot" and rockeurs would bash your face in. All this because Iggy was his usual self on the sleeve.
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neven



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sat May 01, 2010 1:04 am

Petrie Terrace wrote:
I always assumed it was because they were still in print in France, but maybe not, maybe they were just "dead stock"? French gatefold pressings of "Fun House", butterfly label, would turn up as new stock in London stores well into the mid-eighties, but I was never too sure if they were current pressings or just more old stock.

FRENCH GATEFOLD ORIGINAL COPIES HAD A GOLD/TAN/BROWN LABEL
FRENCH NON GATEFOLD COPIES HAD A BUTTERFLY LABEL.
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sat May 01, 2010 1:55 am

These were gatefold and with the butterfly label, I had several over the years, including the first copy of Fun House I ever owned.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sun May 02, 2010 9:46 pm

i have a french butterfly label gatefold bought in the uk in 1977
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sun May 02, 2010 9:47 pm

Yes the Uk re-issue of Raw Power on Embassy came out in 1977, i think it was out before "Idiot"
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sun May 02, 2010 10:29 pm

I think my gatefold is a butterfly too -- wait what I am saying ?
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ianianian



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue May 04, 2010 1:31 pm

FWIW, I dug out an old Dutch Copy - the original release with (more or less) the same label as the original Uk version that HAS the 'good' version of S&D. The news? The Dutch 73 release had the same mix as the US one - ie the 'not so good' mix.

Ian
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ChuckN

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue May 04, 2010 2:25 pm

Just bought the UK-original from E-bay now! Can't wait too hear the difference Smile
The seller was a Paul from England. Suppose that is not you Paul? Very Happy
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue May 04, 2010 5:19 pm

ChuckN wrote:
Just bought the UK-original from E-bay now! Can't wait too hear the difference Smile
The seller was a Paul from England. Suppose that is not you Paul? Very Happy

No Anders, you'd have to prise mine from my "cold dead hand". Very Happy

I even have the UK CBS inner sleeve that advertises RP as an upcoming release, complete with a little mock up of the sleeve, and these suitably restrained words ...

"IGGY & THE STOOGES "RAW POWER" (65586) James Osterberg alias Iggy Pop, the committed pioneer of all the current diluted debauchery, the Master of Self-Immolation via his dementedly masochistic on-stage acrobatics, the very essence of mordant energy, returns after a protracted absence to ravage tender ears and upset musical literati. Despite the backstage presence of that discriminating connoisseur of the mixing console David Bowie, the rough edges remain intact as the reformed trio of Stooges provide a menacing wall of sound behind our hero's own brand of affirmative body-odour boogie. Praise Lucifer and pass the crushed glass in aspic"

"... affirmative body-odour boogie"?!, "Praise Lucifer and pass the crushed glass in aspic"?@!, they sure don't write copy like they used to!
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue May 04, 2010 9:39 pm

Damn what a trip to the past, I remember that blurb it was reprinted in a french mag somewhere
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unheard78



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sat May 15, 2010 11:12 pm

After having read through all ten pages of this thread, I've gotta say that I'm still confused. I'd love to hear that proper vinyl rip to compare things with, as I've heard a tape rip with the alt. S&D on it but the tape sounds like it's been gnarled a bit. Anyway, I'm all in favor of Iggy's version of RP seeing release somewhere, or at least the final word on all the various versions being spoken, but something tells me that will NEVER happen, which is a shame and a blessing at the same time.
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LunarTunes



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sun May 16, 2010 8:10 am

I just read through this whole thread. It's 1:00 in the morning. My head is spinning. It's only recently through joining this forum that I became aware of this whole controversy. I have CBS (non-Embassy) vinyl of RAW POWER, the Iggy 1997 CD and, now, the UK cassette version from that blog. I can see how an hour-and-a-half of my time will be spent sometime this week...

Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Sun May 16, 2010 7:09 pm

Now that I've listened to the Embassy vinyl version, I've gotta agree that only the mix of Search and Destroy sound different from the regular Bowie mix we're all used to. That said, I got a different vinyl rip from a certain private site and the Embassy rip blows it away! It doesn't clearly specify what version the private site has but it's quiet and made me nuts. On the other hand, the Embassy FLAC sound AWESOME! Thanks to the individual who ripped it, thanks to the individual who shared it with me and thanks to everyone here for getting closer to the bottom of all this. Now if only we could get more information on the actual sources for the first seven tracks on Rough Power. I've got a better rip of the WABX tape, but I wish we could also get a complete set of those broadcasts.
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ChuckN

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue May 18, 2010 5:24 pm

Have finally got the original 73' UK-pressing. Want to thank especially jpstooges for sharing the information and the matrix number. It's incredible to finally hear the bass and drums as it should have been.

This really brings up quite a few questions, as mentioned earlier in this thread. What happened with what was a once very good mix?? Did the whole album got totally remastered for the 77' re-issue, and the masters thrown away? And even more important:

This is the evidence that Raw Power was once mixed in a proper way, so why have the original been neglected, and not even considered as the Legacy Edition of Raw Power. Even I got hold of an almost perfect sounding record by just poking around E-bay. I know it's an LP and not the master, but hell.. would have been in heaven if I heard a ripped mix of the original pressing released as the Legacy Edition.

Why should one of the most important recordings in the history be remembered as a guitarist + singer accompanied by feather-dust drumming with an air-bass?

Who do you wanna call?? My vote go for Easy Action!
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue May 18, 2010 6:20 pm

ChuckN wrote:
This really brings up quite a few questions, as mentioned earlier in this thread. What happened with what was a once very good mix?? Did the whole album got totally remastered for the 77' re-issue, and the masters thrown away? And even more important:

This is the evidence that Raw Power was once mixed in a proper way, so why have the original been neglected, and not even considered as the Legacy Edition of Raw Power. Even I got hold of an almost perfect sounding record by just poking around E-bay. I know it's an LP and not the master, but hell.. would have been in heaven if I heard a ripped mix of the original pressing released as the Legacy Edition.

It's only "Search & Destroy" that's mixed differently, the rest is the same as any other pressing of the Bowie mix. This mix of "Search & Destroy" is great, but it never was the standard mix, so it's not a matter of anything getting remixed or remastered in '77. The U.S. pressing from '73, and nearly every other pressing, bar these two U.K. pressings, feature the same mix that is on the Legacy Edition. That is the standard mix, not a mistake, like it or not.
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