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 Raw Power Embassy Reels?

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Number of posts : 221
Location : Beatin' my brains with Luther Vandross
Registration date : 2009-02-26

PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:07 pm

jpstooges wrote:
My Embassy version of Raw Power has red & white label (pictured below), but -to my ears- it sounds roughly the same as original & other reissues I've heard. I got it on ebay last year, it was sold to me as a "cassette mix".
I recorded an A/B sample with the original US version (first 31 seconds are Embassy, then original version), here:

Can you hear any mix differences? Original sounds brighter and Embassy have muddy bass, but it's probably a mastering or vinyl issue, rather than an actual difference in the mix.
I agree - it does sound different, but it seems to be a radically different mastering job, rather than a different mix as such. The giveaway is the way the lead guitar juts out, just like it does on every other rendition of the Bowie mix. Also, if it was truly a different mix, you'd expect some of the elements that Bowie mixed out (such as the swordfighting or the extra "hey"s) to be audible, as they are on the original Stooge mixes.


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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jpstooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:16 pm

seventeen wrote:
Yes, this version is bad sounding, the other is the one to get !
So you think my version (the sampled one) is the good one? If admins are OK, I'd be glad to rip the whole LP and upload it for you. Am I allowed?
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:27 pm

Yeah, when I first played it, all the excitement and goosebumps came back, something I hadn't heard in years re Raw Power, be it on CD or LP reissue. I have a mint copy of the first US pressing thought I bought last year, which I didn't spin yet, I will give it a spin to check if it sounds the same. PS tu es en France ?
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:30 pm

jpstooges wrote:
seventeen wrote:
Yes, this version is bad sounding, the other is the one to get !
So you think my version (the sampled one) is the good one? If admins are OK, I'd be glad to rip the whole LP and upload it for you. Am I allowed?

What about the rest of the album?Different from the bowie mix?
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:16 pm

Here's another mix for you guys!And it's different from the embassy posted by jp!
I'm getting more and more confused....but it's the raw power thing...
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:20 pm

Boogie, the audio cassette is the same as the embassy LP mix, they just shuffled two tracks around. It sounds way less good than the LP rip because it's from a tape, but you can twiddle with it at home and get the picture.

Here's what I think : When they mixed the LP with David Bowie, Iggyand Bowie didn't just twiddle the knobs and record on tape ONE mix and wrapped. The album is only 8 songs long. They probably recorded at least two, if not more, mixes, which are basically the same mixes, with slight tweaks. Perhaps they thought the master sound wasn't loud enough, and re-exported the mixes a few times, while adjusting stuff on the console.

The impression I have is that the Embassy LP mixes are the final, VIOLENT in your face and are the DEFINITIVE VERSIONS recorded in those days, the mixes that scared the company so violent they were. They are the versions that were decided as final by Bowie and Iggy.

Then, when the company was scared shitless, someone probably saw there was other exports, and choose the flat sounding version we now have on older CDs (and the new Legacy edition). These versions to me are NOT Raw Power, they are half baked, unfinished mixes. The finished mixes are the EMBASSY one. Just listen when you get the box set, to the difference in the embassy mix they included in disc 3, and the one we had for the last 25 years.

They aren't whole different mixes, just the finished polished, hard hitting version, whereas the flat sounding, so called "bad" Bowie mix that went on CD and multiple LPs since the mid eighties was the work in progress one.

The existence of various exports of the mixes might explain why Embassy issued those. Back then, when they asked for the masters, they were probably send the violent ones because they were labeled as "final masters" (ie someone forgot about the shuffling of version, and just sent what they thought was the masters). It was a couple of years later and no one cared anymore I guess.

What I don't get is why the Embassy tapes aren't issued as the main tapes on the new CD. Why choose to issue on the main disc the inferior, work in progress version, flat sounding even remastered, when clearly the Embassy tapes are what Iggy spoke about in the remix liner notes (ie the LET'S KILL EM ALL mix). The Embassy (not the cassette, which is compressed, but the LP) is the Raw Power that should be.


Last edited by seventeen on Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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stooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:29 pm

boogie wrote:
Here's another mix for you guys!And it's different from the embassy posted by jp!
I'm getting more and more confused....but it's the raw power thing...

thanks nice mix

great job


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:31 pm

Ok Seventeen but listen to search and destroy,it's different from the embassy mix posted by jp.
I have to say the blogger just reposted the whole album,the link is now workin.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:35 pm

I'm getting it now. JP as the first 30s same as this one I think, the difference is just the audio cassette compression vinyl mastering vs audio K7 (also the channels might be swapped on the tape, it happened a lot back then) (but will check it out anyway).
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Radiobirdman73

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:44 pm

seventeen wrote:


They aren't whole different mixes, just the finished polished, hard hitting version, whereas the flat sounding, so called "bad" Bowie mix that went on CD and multiple LPs since the mid eighties was the work in progress one.

.

i'll be interested to hear the new Deluxe edition to see how accurate this is. JW claims they did something with the bass and drum in the recent Clash article - so the Bowie mix is for all intents and purposes - it's a remix of the classic Bowie mix.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:49 pm

OK Boogie, here's what I think, the difference with search & destroy is that the one on the audio cassette is the Bowie mix. Remember Iggy said his own mix was used instead. It indeed sounds totally different. What I wonder is if the rest of JP LP sounds like the rest of the cassette, or not? We won't know until JP needle drop it all Smile

Perhaps the cassette as the bowie mix, and the LP the iggy mix ? That's a great mystery we need to solve.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:10 pm

For fun i just played 4 versions of Search & Destroy back to back at high volume. Whats amazing is that every version has a totally different feel.

I like the Sundazed vinyl rip version the best, I imagine that the new Legacy CD will sound close to this one, Iggys vocal is crystal clear and the guitars are nicely balanced if a tiny bit low.
I asked this before but nobody answered, what is the history of this sundazed release ? which version is it and what did they do to the recording?, it sounds great to me

The Rough Power version is totally essential its the monster from the murk, the echo on the vocals and the swordfight noises make it a classic.

After checking out these 2 and the embassy version, its like being stoned listening to Iggys deranged mix from 1997 but its also awesome to hear the rhytmn guitar track fizzing and Iggys howling, completely essential

Greatest 3 minutes in rock? for me without a doubt
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:20 pm

OK now I'm confused.

This embassy tape for the most part offers radically different mixes from anything we heard before.

JP LP is the Raw Power I remember. Someone was offering on ebay a CDR (the sale was withdrawn) of the exact same mix as the JP LP. Same LP source, same sound. Now the audio tape is another version altogether. I have to stress that the bonus Shake Appeal and Death Trip labelled Embassy mixes on the new CD set do not sound at all like the mixes on the K7 tape. Is this the audio cassette compression, or what ?

I'm waiting for you guys reactions. JP it would be nice if you can needle drop your LP (for review purposes).


Last edited by seventeen on Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:26 pm

The cassette mix above sounds exactly like the vinyl copy i had in the 70's because of the snare sound (totally different from all of the other versions) and the echo on iggys vocal at the end of search and destroy, but otherwise im as confused as you Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:28 pm

Thanks again to the guy who posted the cassette mix by the way, you are a gentleman and a scholar Smile
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Tyronehell

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:30 pm

I am liking this cassette very much. Never heard it like this before.
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jpstooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:32 pm

More samples from Embassy LP:
- Gimme Danger sounds very similar: here's 25 seconds from original US LP first, then Embassy LP:


- Raw Power: 16 seconds from original US LP first, then Embassy LP:


I still don't know whether or not I own the "good" Embassy LP…this is so confusing.

Search and Destroy from the cassette download [thanks for the link, boogie, btw] sounds really great, different and much, much better than my Embassy LP.

I'd be glad to upload the whole LP rather than samples, just waiting for admins permission.


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Links removed)
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:35 pm

Maybe ive been listening to too much Raw power today can this "cassette mix" really sound so good from a seventies cassette, i'm beginning to think someones playing a joke ? I think i will go and take a valium and calm down LOL!!
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Garageman

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:42 pm

This cassette mix is probably the best mix I've heard so far.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:49 pm

Guys it's funny....just few hours before the release of the new RP and we've already switched to an obscure tape mix
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:15 pm

JP those other samples very close indeed. If there's a LP out there that sounds like the cassette, then it isn't yours. However Search & Destroy do sounds different Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:20 pm

That cassette version is great! It has a great low-end. Very clean compared to all other versions.

I made some pictures of the first seconds of "Search", a so-called spectrogramm. It makes
sound visible, y-axis is the frequency, x-axis the time, colour is the volume (more red => louder....)



This (above) is the Bowie-Mix 80ies CD. Very low Bass, all muddy.



Bowie-Mix LP rip. Louder bass, still muddy...



This is the Embassy Cassette version.
much much better. Ron's bass is loud as it should be and bass drum is there very clearly too.

....Yes I know, I'm a freak, but like this we see what we mean, it's hard to describe what you hear
exactly for others.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:34 pm

Here's the deal as I hear it...

This cassette has a different mix of "Search and Destroy". The rest are the regular mixes as released in 1973.

None of the LP clips posted have been alternate mixes. "Search and Destroy" is also the regular mix, not the "cassette mix".

Both have overall different sound due to mastering, much more so on the cassette. So some might like the sound of them better than non-Embassy issues, but aside from the cassette "Search and Destroy", nothing is differently mixed.

Actually, so far we have no proof that this alternate "Search and Destroy" is on LP.

I avoided using the term "Bowie Mix", because while he did mix most of it, Iggy's original mix of "Search and Destroy" is what was included on the original release. So it's possible the cassette has Bowie's mix of "Seach and Destroy". Which would be pretty cool. Much cooler if the deluxe 3CD set included it. The 3rd CD has become non-essential to me. The 2 '97 Iggy mixes are useless wheather you like them or not, the "Embassy" tracks are useless, "I Got a Right" is one of the same takes as on Heavy Liquid and now there's also the chance "I'm Hungry" is some recent mock-up (mentioned in another thread).
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:47 pm

I dont know if it's been posted before....
Are you ready for a S&D overdose?


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:20 pm

Thanks Smile
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