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 Raw Power Embassy Reels?

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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:20 pm

These aren't the same mixes John, just listen to the K7 Shake Appeal, at 1.06, you can hear one of the guitar tracks is balanced back and pushed to center in the overall mix.

On the Columbia CD (Bowie Mix late 80's CD) that I compare it with, you can't hear the guitar track pushed center.

It's fairly close, but it's not the same mix. Let's say the Columbia CD mix was put on tape at 13.00 H. This sound like a mix they put on tape one hour later, slightly adjusting faders, and playing with the left and right balance on some of the tracks as it went. That's why in the past on analogue, no mix was 99% the same. Tons of moves were done live putting the mix to tape, whereas today you automate the whole process, and one mix might have a 0.5 difference with another. Back then, all mixes put on tape were sightly different even done the same session.

You could not touch at anything, and put a back up tape of the mix for archival purpose, it would still be at least 7% different from the other one due to live adjustment. Here I can hear on some tracks literaly 25% differences. On S&D it's in the 80% different range. It sounds like a monitor mix.


Last edited by seventeen on Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tyronehell

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:33 pm

James's solo in Shake Appeal on the cassette mix rips your scalp off.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:47 pm

Listening to Raw Power right now, incredible ! Shock

Big thanks to the blogger who made it available.
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jpstooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:07 pm

seventeen wrote:
JP those other samples very close indeed. If there's a LP out there that sounds like the cassette, then it isn't yours. However Search & Destroy do sounds different Very Happy
That's what I thought. How many Raw Power does one need to get the right version? Shit, got 9 different vinyl copies of RP, none of them sound as good as this lousy cassette mix!
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TeddyB1018



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:47 pm

Search and Destroy does sound like a different mix. It's possible for the others that the mastering engineer added some reverb for the cassette. The tape is also running a bit faster -- very noticable on Raw Power itself, which is the same mix. Same for Gimme Danger. I think this is a significant contributor to the different sound.
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StoogeFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:42 am

Please God, somone give JP permission to upload the rest of his album.

I have only had a chance to listen to Search and Destroy, raw power, gimme danger and death trip from the cassette but in my opinion they sound way better than the Bowie mix I downloaded from Itunes or any other version I've owned on cd or vinyl. How the hell can a cassette sound better than all the other versions? In my opion it will be a real shame If the legacy edition comes out and it is indeed a remaster of the wrong version (and the samples on amazon would seem to indicate this is what is going to happen). I think Raw Power is one the greatest album ever made and the vast majority of people will never get a chance to listen to as powerful a version as this cassette copy. Thanks for this thread and the best version of this album I have ever heard!
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comaman

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:14 am

Just for fun, here's the coma remix of S&D... Shocked


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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johnthelawman



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:50 am

hey seventeen,
I listened again and still feel that all songs except S&D are the regular mixes with a heavy handed mastering trying to match the feel of the alt S&D. I think what you are hearing in "Shake Appeal" is from some damage to the cassette. At that point in the song where sounds in the center seem to pan to the right is when the high end totally drops out in the left channel. Then when the high end comes back in, it seems like the guitar goes back to the center, but it was really in the center the whole time. Listen to the left channel on it's own and you will hear the places where the high end drops out. You can still hear everything, but it's all really muffled.


Anyone out there with the cassette that would put up a flac of just S&D? Since this mix won't be on the box, would be great to get a lossless copy.
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StoogeFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:04 am

I find that with the cassette version of Death Trip the fades involving the lead guitar are a lot less pronounced than with any other version of this album that I have heard. Could this have been acomplished through a different mastering or would it have to be a different mix.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:43 am

seventeen wrote:
These aren't the same mixes John, just listen to the K7 Shake Appeal, at 1.06, you can hear one of the guitar tracks is balanced back and pushed to center in the overall mix.

On the Columbia CD (Bowie Mix late 80's CD) that I compare it with, you can't hear the guitar track pushed center.

It's fairly close, but it's not the same mix. Let's say the Columbia CD mix was put on tape at 13.00 H. This sound like a mix they put on tape one hour later, slightly adjusting faders, and playing with the left and right balance on some of the tracks as it went. That's why in the past on analogue, no mix was 99% the same. Tons of moves were done live putting the mix to tape, whereas today you automate the whole process, and one mix might have a 0.5 difference with another. Back then, all mixes put on tape were sightly different even done the same session.

You could not touch at anything, and put a back up tape of the mix for archival purpose, it would still be at least 7% different from the other one due to live adjustment. Here I can hear on some tracks literaly 25% differences. On S&D it's in the 80% different range. It sounds like a monitor mix.

I love this techie talk. This deserves its own thread. It's lost in this thread. It reminds me of all the "Closet Mix" vs. "Valentin Mix" talk regarding White Light/White Heat, except everyone knew which mixes were found where!
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Ilmostro



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:04 am

boogie wrote:
I dont know if it's been posted before....
Are you ready for a S&D overdose?



Love the vinyl crackle and pops on the mono mix. Hope that cassette mix gets out too.
yea Im new here. hi everybody !


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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studioguy

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:06 am

stooges wrote:
boogie wrote:
Here's another mix for you guys!And it's different from the embassy posted by jp!
I'm getting more and more confused....but it's the raw power thing...


thanks nice mix

great job

This really is a much better mastered version!!


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:27 am

wasn't that the third VU album?

I have located a Raw Power cassette (may or may not be embassy!) combined with an expensive tape deck, do i leave dolby on or off and where do i put it as flac once done? (had no luck with rapidshare in the past)


Last edited by gazatthebop on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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johnthelawman



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:39 am

gazatthebop wrote:
wasn't that the third VU album?

I have located a 1973 Raw Power cassette combined with an expensive tape deck, do i leave dolby on or off and where do i put it as flac once done? (had no luck with rapidshare in the past)


The Embassy tape?

If the tape has the dolby symbol on it, then use dolby (some like the brighter sound of turning it off, but it's not correct). Also, if the cassette does have dolby on it, I would assume it's dolby B. Only use dolby B. Some people like the results of using C or S or whatever, but I have always found it to sound a little odd (and of course, it isn't correct).

There's megaupload, hotfile, depositfiles. I'm sure there are even more, but those are just the ones I know of.


Yeah, the Closet mix/Valentin mixes were the 3rd LP (I like the closet a good bit better)
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:12 am

OK listening to the samples on itunes, this audio cassette kills it dead. Here you can hear Ron's bass in all it's splendor.

It might be that except for S&D, the mixes are the same on the cassette (but then the press releases says "Raw Power was cut from the Columbia U.S. catalog within a year or so after its release, but had reappeared on the CBS UK budget-line Embassy Records line, "by popular demand" of Brits at the dawn of the punk rock era. Matheu began importing copies to the Peaches record store he managed in Detroit. He immediately noticed the Embassy LP and cassette mixes of "Raw Power" and "Search And Destroy" were different than the U.S. mixes he knew.

Three decades later, Matheu informed Dickinson of the Embassy issue, and Dickinson contacted Richard Bowe at the Sony UK archive. They were able to find the original tapes - now known as the Embassy Reels - which did, indeed, have different codes and matrix numbers on them. As Dickinson began transcribing the Embassy Reels, it wasn't just "Raw Power" and "Search And Destroy" that were different, it was a completely alternate mix for the whole album."

So I dunno. ?! What's certain is that it slays ! And we should all thank the blogger who upped it. It's great.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:17 am

gazatthebop wrote:
wasn't that the third VU album?

Yes, "The Velvet Underground."
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: CBS UK 1973 original sounds great   Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:36 pm

seventeen wrote:
OK listening to the samples on itunes, this audio cassette kills it dead. Here you can hear Ron's bass in all it's splendor.

Are you listening to the cassette rip linked to from above? The one I just downloaded is impossible to hear. I have become gripped by this RawPower mix/master hysteria too. So...

Can someone explain what the Sundazed LP version is please?

I just ripped and hand de-clicked my CBS UK original and compared it to a rip I borrowed from the internet of the Sundazed LP. The CBS beats it hands down. Absoloutely. Ok the 96/24 rip of the Sundazed may possibly be to blame but there really is no bass in it's Search and Destroy. The Sundazed Search and Destroy sounds thin and weedy compared to my beaten up original LP. The original has full bass and a rounded sound with lots of details in the mix and wider stereo imaging. The difference is clear in Search and Destroy, Raw Power and Shake Appeal.

So which version is the Sundazed and why is the original LP generally thought to be so bad?
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:42 pm

johnthelawman wrote:



Yeah, the Closet mix/Valentin mixes were the 3rd LP (I like the closet a good bit better)

I'm out on a limb here. I prefer the Valentin to Reed's sub 'Cale' mix.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:51 pm

Datsun, here's my theory : somehow over the years, wrong takes of Raw Power replaced the real Bowie Mix as the "official Bowie mix that sounds bad".

I have the first press too and will give it a spin, it's been a while. But remember when RP fist came out on CD, everybody was appaled how bad it sounded. We all put it down to the CD mastering.

My opinion is that it's not the mastering, it's a totally different version of the masters they used, and keep using.

It's like the bad replaced the good one. Then everybody went "Bowieeee, blaaaaaaaahhhh" without checking the original pressings and the difference. It's I think a case of music revisionism, and the fact that the bad version is still presented as the original bowie mix on the legacy reissue keeps perpetuating this.
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:51 pm

I've listened closely to the cassette transfer and A/B'd it with a vinyl rip of the Bowie mix, making notes along the way (yes, I am a massive geek just in case you haven't noticed).

General observations:

1. The whole thing runs slightly faster than the LP, which doesn't necessarily mean anything - it could be related to the deck it was played back on, a quirk of 1970s cassette duplication, or any number of things

2. The only mix that's notably different is Search & Destroy, although a few songs have an extra split-second at the beginning or end

3. The whole thing does sound slightly bassier than the LP, but I wouldn't consider this to be significant really - it could be a result of the mastering, it could be a result of it being a 30+ year old cassette (old tapes do often have quite a bassy sound).

Track by track:

Seach & Destroy
Defintely an alt mix - either that or the tape is seriously screwed! In general there is more stereo panning here - the original is virtually mono. Cymbal and (more prominent) swordfighting noises panned to left plus strange delay effect from snare. Echo on "forgotten boy, forgotten boy" bit near the end. Slight stereo echo on the guitar. More prominent bass and more bottom-end on the drums, but this could just be the sound of the tape. Slightly longer ending - the last thing you hear is an extra cymbal hit not on the LP

I Need Somebody
This runs considerably faster than the LP, timing out at 4.50 rather than 5.00. Otherwise seems to be the same mix. Fades out a microsecond later - the last thing you hear is a "yeah!" in the distance that's not quite on the LP.

Your Pretty Face Is Going to Hell
Seems to be the same mix

Penetration
Same mix

Raw Power
Same mix

Gimmie Danger
Same mix

Shake Appeal
Again, this sounds to be exactly the same mix as the LP - I agree with the person who said the panning during the solo sounds like tape damage. However! Right at the start, before the music kicks in you can just about hear Iggy whispering something. I can't make out what it is (it could be backwards, in which case it may be bleed from the other side of the tape) but I don't think this is on any other version.

Death Trip
Same mix


Last edited by mark on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:53 pm

seventeen wrote:
Datsun, here's my theory : somehow over the years, wrong takes of Raw Power replaced the real Bowie Mix as the "official Bowie mix that sounds bad".

I have the first press too and will give it a spin, it's been a while. But remember when RP fist came out on CD, everybody was appaled how bad it sounded. We all put it down to the CD mastering.

My opinion is that it's not the mastering, it's a totally different version of the masters they used, and keep using.

It's like the bad replaced the good one. Then everybody went "Bowieeee, blaaaaaaaahhhh" without checking the original pressings and the difference. It's I think a case of music revisionism, and the fact that the bad version is still presented as the original bowie mix on the legacy reissue keeps perpetuating this.
Either that, or the Bowie mix is so freakin' strange that every time someone tries to master it, they screw around with it in a different way which is how we've ended up with all these different versions.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:16 pm

I just listened to the Deluxe promo alt. mix of Shake Appeal on disc 3 and the 1988 US CD and they both sound the same to these ears....sorry!
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:06 pm

Sure the embassy tape is the bowie mix(except S&D),you can hear the bowieness of it flower


Last edited by boogie on Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:53 pm

i thought the idea of Shake Appeal and Gimme Danger on the deluxe set is they are newly discovered!!
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jpstooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:43 pm

For those who haven't heard it yet, the original mix of Search & Destroy is also worth listening. It can be found on "Shake Appeal" 10" (far too hissy to be enjoyable) or "Duet At The Mantra" LP (far too much noise reduction) (I posted both in bootleg section).
I found a 3rd "version" (from "Garden Of Evil" Iggy LP), without hiss, without too much noise reduction, and ripped it for you in FLAC:

Now that's what should have been on the Legacy/Deluxe edition.


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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