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 Raw Power Embassy Reels?

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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:14 pm

mark wrote:
I've listened closely to the cassette transfer and A/B'd it with a vinyl rip of the Bowie mix, making notes along the way (yes, I am a massive geek just in case you haven't noticed).

Which pressing of the Bowie mix did you compare it to? ...the reason I ask is...

mark wrote:

Seach & Destroy
Defintely an alt mix - either that or the tape is seriously screwed! In general there is more stereo panning here - the original is virtually mono. Cymbal and (more prominent) swordfighting noises panned to left plus strange delay effect from snare. Echo on "forgotten boy, forgotten boy" bit near the end. Slight stereo echo on the guitar. More prominent bass and more bottom-end on the drums, but this could just be the sound of the tape. Slightly longer ending - the last thing you hear is an extra cymbal hit not on the LP


... that you seem to have just described the version on my 1973 CBS UK pressing. Very clear stereo imaging. Bass. Echo on "forgotten boy, forgotten boy" near end. Stereo guitar effects. High hat (?) is left. btw - I could never work out where the swordfighting noises were meant to be?


Last edited by mr.datsun on Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:29 pm

jpstooges wrote:
For those who haven't heard it yet, the original mix of Search & Destroy is also worth listening. It can be found on "Shake Appeal" 10" (far too hissy to be enjoyable) or "Duet At The Mantra" LP (far too much noise reduction) (I posted both in bootleg section).
I found a 3rd "version" (from "Garden Of Evil" Iggy LP), without hiss, without too much noise reduction, and ripped it for you in FLAC:

Now that's what should have been on the Legacy/Deluxe edition.
Thanks for posting that - I agree, the original Stooge mixes (ie the Rough Power/WABX stuff but in better quality) REALLY should have been represented on this release. Presumably the original tapes have been lost, but who knows.

As ever, the original mixes of the album are spread about all over the place on various nasty-sounding boot and semi-boot releases. Looks like it's up to us to find and assemble the best versions... let's go to work.


Last edited by heavy liquid on Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Link removed)
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tjb81

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:33 pm

krugersoldier wrote:
Thanks again to the guy who posted the cassette mix by the way, you are a gentleman and a scholar Smile

You're welcome...I certainly had enough requests to repost it since the first time I posted it. You guys are INSANE! I mean that in a good way. I'll try to leave it up for as long as possible. The version I posted is 160 kbps MP3. I've had requests for lossless. If I have the time, I'll rip it that way and post that link as well.
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stooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:39 pm

there are some other mixi raw power in addition to Bowie, pop, raw mixees, rough power mix?
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:44 pm

mr.datsun wrote:
Which pressing of the Bowie mix did you compare it to?
It's from a torrent I download a while ago, just labeled "Raw Power Bowie Mix". On further examination of the MP3 tags, it seems it may actually be the Sundazed version.
Quote :
... that you seem to have just described the version on my 1973 CBS UK pressing. Very clear stereo imaging. Bass. Echo on "forgotten boy, forgotten boy" near end. Stereo guitar effects. High hat (?) is left.
Yep that's the one!

I've just checked my 1989 CD (on Castle) of the Bowie Mix and it's the same near-mono version of S&D as the Sundazed version.
Quote :
btw - I could never work out where the swordfighting noises were meant to be?
I always assumed it was the TISH TISH TISH TISH that comes in eg behind the line "I'm a streetwalking cheetah with a heart full of napalm"
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:47 pm

After listening over and over, I agree with Mark, the first song S&D is for sure an alternate mix and I think this is the Bowie mix that was put on hold and replaced by the Iggy mix.

Now, here's my theory for the rest : the original tapes probably have something like Dolby or else applied to them, and without it on the right player, they sound flat (ie just like the 80's CD and the recent Legacy reissue, with no bottom end and no bass).

I'm thinking the cassette probably represent, save the S&D track, exactly what was intended for the record to sound (give or take some EQ adjustments.

It's funny, it seems the two tracks on disc 3 taken from the same tapes, have had EQ applied to them for the bottom end to be botched and them to sound just like the rest of the CD tracks (mid range / trebly).

Audio cassette is Ron's show. Never have his bass been more loud and clear.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:56 pm

Asked someone to send me a pic of his "Raw Power" cd to compare...he has nine different copies...anyone beat that!!!
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Garageman

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:00 pm

gazatthebop wrote:
Asked someone to send me a pic of his "Raw Power" cd to compare...he has nine different copies...anyone beat that!!!

That's definitely... Hard To Beat Very Happy
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:36 pm

Guys,

I can hopefully clear up some of these points. Firstly, the 'different' mix of Search & Destroy that appears on early vinyl (and cassette) copies of Raw Power is Iggy's original mix. When Bowie was drafted in to remix the album, Iggy demanded that his original mix of Search & Destroy be retained because he loved that track more than the rest of them! At some point the Bowie mix was substituted for future pressings.

The 'extra' little snippets heard at the end of a couple of tracks from the cassette version ARE on the vinyl as well - it's simply that the cutting needle of a record lathe will not recognise a signal below a certain volume whereas a tape is more receptive. The cassette and vinyl versions are actually the same.

With regard to the cassette being 'faster' that the vinyl, I have explained on another thread about default settings, so I won't go into that again. However, it should be pointed out that turntables also run at slightly differing speeds for similar reasons. For example, a turntable set to rotate at 50hz will run very slightly faster than a 60hz equivalent.

As has been pointed out, old cassettes do have a slightly more 'bassy' sound to them. This is partly because top-end frequencies are much weaker and are therefore the first to fade. This is why an experienced mastering engineer should give the top end frequencies a very slight 'tweak' to compensate for the loss during transfer. After cassettes have been played a number of times, these frequencies inevitably start to fade, leaving a net bass gain.

With regard to Dolby, yes, it will be Dolby B that has been used. Dolby S was not in use for domestic cassette decks at the time, and Dolby C is a glorified noisegate. There is no right or wrong way to use Dolby on playback. If it was used during the recording of the tape, then it was for the purpose of minimising background hiss at the expense of a few top-end frequency peaks. Leaving it off during playback will help restore the original sound, while switching it on will simply give you even less hiss with even less top-end as a result! It is all down to personal preference.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:14 pm

All makes sense ...are you suggesting there is no Embassy mix of the whoe album? Just a different mix of Search and Destroy on early copies?
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Tyronehell

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:32 pm

So why include Shake Appeal & Death Trip on the deluxe version of Raw Power saying they are from the Embassy Reels?
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:01 pm

StoogesFan wrote:
Guys,

I can hopefully clear up some of these points. Firstly, the 'different' mix of Search & Destroy that appears on early vinyl (and cassette) copies of Raw Power is Iggy's original mix. When Bowie was drafted in to remix the album, Iggy demanded that his original mix of Search & Destroy be retained because he loved that track more than the rest of them! At some point the Bowie mix was substituted for future pressings.
Except it can't be Iggy's original mix. Or, at least, if it IS Iggy's original mix, that doesn't account for the totally different mix (with extra HEYs, louder fencing etc) that's on the WABX tapes and various bootlegs.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:25 pm

Both mixes are weird enough to be iggy's mix........Maybe RP was meant to sound like that from start to finish.......
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Okay, I need to clarify. The so-called 'Embassy Reels' contain Iggy's mix of the entire album - the same mix that was rejected by the record company and resulted in Bowie being called in. As I stated earlier, only Search & Destroy from these Embassy reels was used on the original album - and only because Iggy demanded it. I am guessing that Iggy did not keep tabs on future pressings which is why the record company was able to substitute Bowie's mix of that track at some point later on.

The WABX tape is yet another mix. It is strongly rumoured to be a 'monitor mix' done in the studio purely as a reference. The lack of any fade-outs on the four complete tracks from this tape would tend to support this theory.

I hope this helps.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:11 pm

I thought the original iggy/stooges mix was the one on rough power,some tracks are pretty good.
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:32 pm

mark wrote:
mr.datsun wrote:
Which pressing of the Bowie mix did you compare it to?
It's from a torrent I download a while ago, just labeled "Raw Power Bowie Mix". On further examination of the MP3 tags, it seems it may actually be the Sundazed version.
Quote :
... that you seem to have just described the version on my 1973 CBS UK pressing. Very clear stereo imaging. Bass. Echo on "forgotten boy, forgotten boy" near end. Stereo guitar effects. High hat (?) is left.
Yep that's the one!

I've just checked my 1989 CD (on Castle) of the Bowie Mix and it's the same near-mono version of S&D as the Sundazed version.
Quote :
btw - I could never work out where the swordfighting noises were meant to be?
I always assumed it was the TISH TISH TISH TISH that comes in eg behind the line "I'm a streetwalking cheetah with a heart full of napalm"

Yes that tallies with my thoughts. The Sundazed S&D is thin and weedy and sounds unlike the rest of the LP. The CBS 1973 S&D is a full on better stereo sound that sounds like it belongs to the rest of the LP.

Thanks for the pointer to the sword sound it's quite muffled in the original LP which is probably why I never thought of it as being the 'famous' sword sound.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:35 pm

Cheers for this....
But the two tracks on the new 3xCD deluxe version sound the same as the 1988 US Columbia CD to me!


StoogesFan wrote:
Okay, I need to clarify. The so-called 'Embassy Reels' contain Iggy's mix of the entire album - the same mix that was rejected by the record company and resulted in Bowie being called in. As I stated earlier, only Search & Destroy from these Embassy reels was used on the original album - and only because Iggy demanded it. I am guessing that Iggy did not keep tabs on future pressings which is why the record company was able to substitute Bowie's mix of that track at some point later on.

The WABX tape is yet another mix. It is strongly rumoured to be a 'monitor mix' done in the studio purely as a reference. The lack of any fade-outs on the four complete tracks from this tape would tend to support this theory.

I hope this helps.
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:18 am

StoogesFan wrote:
Okay, I need to clarify. The so-called 'Embassy Reels' contain Iggy's mix of the entire album - the same mix that was rejected by the record company and resulted in Bowie being called in. As I stated earlier, only Search & Destroy from these Embassy reels was used on the original album - and only because Iggy demanded it. I am guessing that Iggy did not keep tabs on future pressings which is why the record company was able to substitute Bowie's mix of that track at some point later on.


I hope this helps.

I'm not sure about this version of events that has Iggy's S&D on the first pressing. The version of S&D on the original 1973 LP has the same sound as the rest of the LP, which is known as Bowies mix. The version of S&D on the Sundazed LP sounds thin and mono and with little bass. Surely this one that is thin and weedy is not Bowie's but Iggy's? Because why would Bowie produce a version of S&D that sounds unlike the rest of his own mix?
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:48 am

Wow - this one is turning into a marathon! Okay, one more time:

Initial pressings of Raw Power contained Iggy's mix of Search & Destroy. Probably a very limited print run. All of the pressings after this (including those pressings immediately after this limited run) contained Bowie's mix instead. This is why many people who own an 'original 1973 pressing' have the Bowie version.

I do not own a Sundazed pressing, so I have no idea what it sounds like. However, it is possible the company are working from a master tape or a stamper used to make the original pressings and will therefore contain Iggy's mix of Search & Destroy.
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gazatthebop

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:27 am

Wow - this one is turning into a marathon!

wonder what we'll be like when the Cale 1st album mix comes out!
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mark



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:32 am

StoogesFan wrote:
Okay, I need to clarify. The so-called 'Embassy Reels' contain Iggy's mix of the entire album - the same mix that was rejected by the record company and resulted in Bowie being called in.
Surely the Embassy Reels = the masters used for the 1977 Embassy reissue of the LP?

And if that's the case, I thought we were all agreed that, bar Search & Destroy, the only difference between that release and any other is the way it's mastered?
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:00 am

My theory is that the Sundazed is perhaps the so called Embassy version. I just AB'd parts of it again with CBS 1973 LP spotting these differences.

As opposed to Mark's AB with the Cassette and the Sundazed I find this comparing the CBS and the Sundazed.

Search & Destroy

see above. The Sundazed is mono. The CBS stereo, extra effects etc etc

Gimme Danger
From the Sundazed copy I would say that Gimme Danger has a different beginning to the CBS. I just A/B'd it. Sundazed GD is mono , CBS is stereo with the light bell/xylophone percussion coming in the right channel after the opening in the left. The Sundazed GD is without that extra percussive instrument and all starts in both channels as one.

Penetration
on Sundazed lacks the stereo percussion and the effects on the percussion.

In general the Sundazed is a very mono version and thin throughout. The CBS has a lot of stereo detailing and has a fuller sound with greater bass.

The old CD rip (I guess 1989) that i have sounds exactly like the 1973 CBS LP and so does the UK cassette rip. The Sundazed is different in many aspects.


Last edited by mr.datsun on Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:22 am

StoogesFan wrote:
Wow - this one is turning into a marathon! Okay, one more time:

Initial pressings of Raw Power contained Iggy's mix of Search & Destroy. Probably a very limited print run. All of the pressings after this (including those pressings immediately after this limited run) contained Bowie's mix instead. This is why many people who own an 'original 1973 pressing' have the Bowie version.

Thanks for clearing that up! I bought the LP in the first week or two after it came out so I wonder whetehr all UK copies had the Bowie mix throughout. What are the physical difference if any between the pressings? Matrix nos.? Has anyone got one?

StoogesFan wrote:
I do not own a Sundazed pressing, so I have no idea what it sounds like. However, it is possible the company are working from a master tape or a stamper used to make the original pressings and will therefore contain Iggy's mix of Search & Destroy.

Please see my previous post above. It can be found as a 24/96 rip online.

For what it's worth if the Sundazed S&D is evidence of Iggy's mix I can see why Bowie was bought in. Also as Iggy decided to practically leave out any evidence of bass and drums from his mix does that support the old theory that they were badly recorded at the outset?


Last edited by mr.datsun on Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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iggy



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:19 am

tjb81 wrote:
If I have the time, I'll rip it that way and post that link as well.

Thanks for the link and yes please.
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Ilmostro



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power Embassy Reels?   Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:30 am

Now I see why the Sundazed vinyl didnt knock me over right away. Glad to have another version though !
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