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specotron



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PostSubject: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 3:43 pm

Probably everyone who ordered the two 'deluxe' versions of these classic albums now have them. Question is, who did a better job, Rhino or Sony? This query assumes Rhino will fix the slow Cale mix, which ruins the set.

So, assuming the slow mix is repaired on the replacement discs, I would pick Rhino. Sony's packaging is superior and its reproduction of a vintage record (versus Rhino's odd choice of a 'make believe' single never before released... why wasn't 1969 replicated instead?) is better, but the selection of tracks gives it to Rhino. It has 3 versions: the original, the Cale mix, and a 3rd 'complete' alternate version. Yeah, yeah... clever bastards found a way to force completists to buy this title yet again, but it was the 2005 release that fell short, not this one. This is the one for the ages. Once again however; Rhino must fix the slow mix problem or its set will suck for eternity.

Sony's Bowie-only mix is its #1 problem. For this set to live up to its Legacy name, the inclusion of both complete versions as Disc One was required. It was not. No problem with Disc Two; in fact, it is the meat of the matter. It falls short of perfect 'sound-board' live material, but this is the best live vintage Stooges to date and I'll take it. Disc Three is total nonsense. For starters, 3 of the 8 tracks are not even 'bonus' tracks, but 3 already available Pop mixes. This way too short disc could have and should have had more in the way of clean-sounded alternate takes (which were probably available) and arranged much as Rhino did it... as a third version of alternates and outtakes. Overall, Sony's set is more flash than guts.

What say ye?
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ziggy

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 4:00 pm

About the sony release, I agree with you : to be complete it should include both the Bowie and Iggy mix. And I'd had that even the basic two disc set should have both I Got a Right and Gimme Some Skin in their most canonic version, as they are now cult classics and should be made available to the public (not just the fans) with Raw Power (it could be fun also to have a violent "Iggy-like" mix and mastering of these tracks as alternates, to fit the '97 version of the album).
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 4:42 pm

I think there is a lot of confusion over what Sony was trying to accomplish here.

If the Iggy release would have been included I would not have purchased the set. Iggy did a REMIX, not a REMASTER. There is a difference. Iggy completely re-did the mix and fucked Ron and Scott in the asses. The REMASTER stayed true to the original intent, adding a few flourishes here and there, but cleaned everything up.

The Legacy is the Raw Power-era Stooges. Iggy's mix is 1990s...not 1973. Maybe people are missing something here. The remaster is SUPPOSED to be the Bowie mix. That is the mix that received a mass-release and that created the legend. That is the mix that ignited a revolution. The idea was not to REMIX the original album. The idea was to REMASTER it.

Iggy got a couple of his mixes on a disc for - probably - royalty reasons. There is nothing Raw Power-era on the remix. It is pure 90s. Funny, but Butch Vig would have been a better choice for a 90s remix, because Nevermind sounds far superior than Iggy's piece-of-shit job. I refer everyone to Ron's opinion of the remix and leave it at that.

As for the Cale mixes being too slow, that REALLY pisses me off. I will NOT purchase this set. I am not a completist. When I make these purchases I get rid of the "lesser" versions in my collection. This reminds me of the Velvet Underground's legendary "Le Bataclan '72" show. It has circulated for many years in bootleg format, but when the time comes for an official release, an inferior, way-too-slow mix was used. Fuck that.

Sony's effort gets my vote. If it were up to me: Disc 1 - Remaster; Disc 2 - Outtakes/Odds & Sods; Disc 3 - Live Show; Disc 4 - Original Bowie mix (CBS/Columbia); Disc 5 - DVD
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steve2787



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 9:09 pm

This is slightly off topic but with the re-re-release of Raw Power in the form of the Legacy version, in 10 years which version will be bought?- the Iggy version or the new Lecacy version? The Iggy version is single disc and cheaper which means that new fans and people not familiar with the the Stooges will probably pick it up over the Legacy version which is more expensive. A part of me thinks that in a couple of years the Bowie version (no matter how crappy the new master is) will again be lost unless it's put on a single disc that's affordable to the average consumer.

With regards to my choice Rhino or Sony, I'd pick Rhino. I prefer the packaging and think it's great. The sound quality (besides the Cale issue, which hopefully will be rectified) is top notch. The Legacy set is inferior and misleading in my opinion. Bowie's mix still sounds thin and not much better than the old CD version. It boggles my mind that Funhouse and ST still sound way better even though they were recorded years prior and the remasters were lower profile and not nearly as publicized as the new RP remaster. We were also led to believe Georgia Peaches was "soundboard" quality. However, I think Metallic KO has better sound quality and is a better representation of the Stooges' live show from that period. Georgia Peaches doesn't have any additional songs on it over Metallic KO if you have the 2 CD version.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 9:24 pm

steve2787 wrote:
This is slightly off topic but with the re-re-release of Raw Power in the form of the Legacy version, in 10 years which version will be bought?- the Iggy version or the new Lecacy version? The Iggy version is single disc and cheaper which means that new fans and people not familiar with the the Stooges will probably pick it up over the Legacy version which is more expensive. A part of me thinks that in a couple of years the Bowie version (no matter how crappy the new master is) will again be lost unless it's put on a single disc that's affordable to the average consumer.

Most companies will let a "deluxe-type" set stay on the shelves a little while before releasing a single-disc version. The 2-CD version is already selling for $13.99 on Amazon. The 1997 reissue will eventually be withdrawn, as was the original Bowie-mix CD.
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 10:29 pm

steve2787 wrote:
Bowie's mix still sounds thin and not much better than the old CD version. It boggles my mind that Funhouse and ST still sound way better even though they were recorded years prior and the remasters were lower profile and not nearly as publicized as the new RP remaster.

Sorry, but that's Raw Power. The new remaster sounds dangerously close to the original US vinyl, and I'm not sure that we could hope for more than that without totally remixing it, and we've already been down that road with Iggy's ego stroke remix. No one was complaning about the sound of Raw Power before Iggy started carping about it to promote his remix. People who think it sounds thin are usually people who grew up in the CD age and had their perspective warped by rampant compression and redlining. I first heard Raw Power in the 80s and it was a complete assault on the senses compared to every other record on the planet. It still is, AFAIC. Ever heard anything else that sounds like it? I doubt it. If you don't like the Bowie mix, then you don't like Raw Power, end of story. Maybe you like that set of songs, but that mix is Raw Power.
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steve2787



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 10:50 pm

rubber legs wrote:
steve2787 wrote:
Bowie's mix still sounds thin and not much better than the old CD version. It boggles my mind that Funhouse and ST still sound way better even though they were recorded years prior and the remasters were lower profile and not nearly as publicized as the new RP remaster.

Sorry, but that's Raw Power. The new remaster sounds dangerously close to the original US vinyl, and I'm not sure that we could hope for more than that without totally remixing it, and we've already been down that road with Iggy's ego stroke remix. No one was complaning about the sound of Raw Power before Iggy started carping about it to promote his remix. People who think it sounds thin are usually people who grew up in the CD age and had their perspective warped by rampant compression and redlining. I first heard Raw Power in the 80s and it was a complete assault on the senses compared to every other record on the planet. It still is, AFAIC. Ever heard anything else that sounds like it? I doubt it. If you don't like the Bowie mix, then you don't like Raw Power, end of story. Maybe you like that set of songs, but that mix is Raw Power.

I love Raw Power and don't think there's anything wrong with Bowie's MIX, but rather the MASTERING of the mix. The Embassy thread makes it clear that a superior master of Bowie's mix exists. My complaint is that the Legacy version still has the bass and drums turned down way too low, which is a major disappointment considering it's supposed to be the definitive version of Bowie's mix. Instead, it's clearly inferior to the initial pressings from the 70's. My criticism is not of Bowie's mix but Sony's treatment and mastering of the mix. I don't expect a wall of sound, redlining, or clipping. I just want an "even" sounding mix of the recordings.
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:05 pm

steve2787 wrote:
I love Raw Power and don't think there's anything wrong with Bowie's MIX, but rather the MASTERING of the mix. The Embassy thread makes it clear that a superior master of Bowie's mix exists. My complaint is that the Legacy version still has the bass and drums turned down way too low, which is a major disappointment considering it's supposed to be the definitive version of Bowie's mix. Instead, it's clearly inferior to the initial pressings from the 70's. My criticism is not of Bowie's mix but Sony's treatment and mastering of the mix. I don't expect a wall of sound, redlining, or clipping. I just want an "even" sounding mix of the recordings.

The original mix of Raw Power has NEVER been "even". As for the "better" mastering of the so-called Emabssy mix, the only real difference is on "Search & Destroy", which is actually a different mix. I have an original US pressing from '73 and, as I said in my previous post, it sounds almost identical to the Legacy remaster. I've listened to it back-to-back with the UK cassette rip that was posted elsewhere and, other than the different mix of S&D, the only difference between the two is that the treble is rolled off on the cassette, which gives the impression of more bass, but the fact is that there isn't any, there's just more treble on the vinyl. I'm not averse to the idea of bumping up the drums and bass on some sort of reissue, but that would be a remix, not a remaster. If you read the liner notes to the '97 Iggy mix, he claims that the bass and drums were just so poorly recorded that there was nothing he could do about it in his remix. If you've seen the DVD that comes with the Deluxe edition, you know this is utter bollocks, because when they are sitting there at the mixing board they play the multitracks of "Raw Power" (the song) with the bass at the fore and everything else turned down. So, the bass has been there all along (no doubt the drums are too), Iggy just chose to ignore it on his remix because he felt some need to negate the importance of the Ashetons for some reason. The fact that he trashes them in the liner notes only supports this notion.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:06 pm

steve2787 wrote:
rubber legs wrote:
steve2787 wrote:
Bowie's mix still sounds thin and not much better than the old CD version. It boggles my mind that Funhouse and ST still sound way better even though they were recorded years prior and the remasters were lower profile and not nearly as publicized as the new RP remaster.

Sorry, but that's Raw Power. The new remaster sounds dangerously close to the original US vinyl, and I'm not sure that we could hope for more than that without totally remixing it, and we've already been down that road with Iggy's ego stroke remix. No one was complaning about the sound of Raw Power before Iggy started carping about it to promote his remix. People who think it sounds thin are usually people who grew up in the CD age and had their perspective warped by rampant compression and redlining. I first heard Raw Power in the 80s and it was a complete assault on the senses compared to every other record on the planet. It still is, AFAIC. Ever heard anything else that sounds like it? I doubt it. If you don't like the Bowie mix, then you don't like Raw Power, end of story. Maybe you like that set of songs, but that mix is Raw Power.

I love Raw Power and don't think there's anything wrong with Bowie's MIX, but rather the MASTERING of the mix. The Embassy thread makes it clear that a superior master of Bowie's mix exists. My complaint is that the Legacy version still has the bass and drums turned down way too low, which is a major disappointment considering it's supposed to be the definitive version of Bowie's mix. Instead, it's clearly inferior to the initial pressings from the 70's. My criticism is not of Bowie's mix but Sony's treatment and mastering of the mix. I don't expect a wall of sound, redlining, or clipping. I just want an "even" sounding mix of the recordings.

Well, then you are not talking about the Raw Power that was originally mass-produced. The Embassy mix did not receive wide-release. The Legacy version is a remastering of the Raw Power that most people are familiar with.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:08 pm

I'm happy to have the Raw Power deluxe set, but it's still not what it could have been. As others have noted, the selection of outtakes and mixes is a bit stingy - in a $60+ set they could have been a little more forthcoming. The live set is great to have, not because the sound or the performance is "peak", but only because most of the other live sets out there sound worse.

As for versions/remixes of the album itself, it's good to have the Bowie mix available again, but nothing would have made me happier than a real proper mix of the album to cap off box. Neither of the mixes we've heard does justice to the the half the band that wasn't Iggy & James. You'd think with only 3 instruments they wouldn't have such a hard time balancing the lead guitar and vocals against the rhythm section, but there ya go - obviously the bass and drums are on tape, why can no one seem to get them into proper balance? There are still parts of some of the songs that sounded better on the WABX tapes than on any of the studio releases.

Unfortunately, 2 opportunities to fix this have come and gone, so I doubt there'll be another anytime soon.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:11 pm

Rubber Legs has explained it perfectly. All the people on this forum are complaining about the Legacy Remaster not being from the best available tapes really don't get it. A REMASTER is NOT a REMIX.

And as Rubber Legs said, if you prefer the sound of an ego-driven lead singer fucking his rhythm section over, then the Iggy REMIX is for you. Ron is spitting at you in his grave.
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:21 pm

[quote="rubber legs"]
steve2787 wrote:


The original mix of Raw Power Iggy just chose to ignore it on his remix because he felt some need to negate the importance of the Ashetons for some reason. The fact that he trashes them in the liner notes only supports this notion.

If you check the liner notes on Iggy Remix, the reissue information says that:
"All songs remixed by Iggy Pop, Danny Kadar and Bruce Dickinson"

So, the one who fucked up the "Iggy Remix" could allso be Danny Kadar or Bruce Dickinson, and not just Iggy. At one point in the film, Iggy says that he totally forgot the backin vocals on the "Raw Power" song, - so maybe the "Remix" was actually done by Kadar and Dickinson, - It's possible that Iggy just took the credit for the remix and it was Dickinson and Kadar who actually did the job, I dunno. I mean, Iggy dosen't even do any soundchecks on his gigs anymore...He's got people doin things for him.


Last edited by Aku on Wed May 05, 2010 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jneilnyc

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:22 pm

On the other hand, if you prefer the sound of two ego-driven lead singers fucking this rhythm section over, then the original mix is for you.

The most illuminating part of the DVD was Scott saying he listened to his original copy of the album once and then tossed it away like a frisbee.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:30 pm

[quote="rubber legs"]
steve2787 wrote:
No one was complaning about the sound of Raw Power before Iggy started carping about it to promote his remix. People who think it sounds thin are usually people who grew up in the CD age and had their perspective warped by rampant compression and redlining.

I have to disagree with this comment. The story of its awful mix preceded my even hearing the record. People have been complaining about it for years - starting off with Iggy in the mid 70's talking about how "that fucking carrot top had sabotaged his record"
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:32 pm

jneilnyc wrote:
there ya go - obviously the bass and drums are on tape, why can no one seem to get them into proper balance?

Why should they be in balance? This is rock n roll, itīs crazy, wild, dangerous, out of control...why should there be balance? This is out of control rock n roll, - the stooges, if you want everything in balance, there's always Radio and MTV friendly Green Day albums for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Wed May 05, 2010 11:40 pm

Aku, this is simple:
They should be in balance to recognise and appreciate the great rhythm-work of the Asheton brothers !!

What was most out of control were (are?) Iggy's and James' egos...and certain habbits too lol! wow this is sooo Rock'n'Roll
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:04 am

I think that both the Rhino and Sony sets are about equal. Both have great packaging but are let down in some way by the content. Rhino have the 'too slow' Cale mixes while the Sony set is let down by most of the 'unreleased' bonus tracks actually turning out to be already released versions.

I actually think the new remaster of the Bowie mix is great. To my ears it sounds considerably better that the original release. Perhaps it depends on the equipment it is played on?

However, I do agree it needs another mix to give Ron & Scott their fair share of the album.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:16 am

I've listened to the Bowie mix of RP for ages,now a 2CD full of alternate takes/outtakes/early mixes would be awesome!Just like listening to 4/5 takes of Funhouse in a row....
Anyway there's nothing wrong with remixing,we're goin to buy a remixed version of Kill City
in october,don't we?
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:23 am

MJG196 wrote:
Rubber Legs has explained it perfectly. All the people on this forum are complaining about the Legacy Remaster not being from the best available tapes really don't get it. A REMASTER is NOT a REMIX.

And as Rubber Legs said, if you prefer the sound of an ego-driven lead singer fucking his rhythm section over, then the Iggy REMIX is for you. Ron is spitting at you in his grave.

Maybe we're just arguing semantics at this point but neither Funhouse nor Self Titled have been "remixed." If you look at the liner notes to those reissues (which clearly have more pronounced bass) it only says "remastered by..." By that reasoning, there is some leeway to adjust the levels without it being considered a remix. I'm not asking Bowie's "artistry" to be removed. I just want the shortcomings, that most everyone in the band have complained about, to be rectified.
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:29 am

Aku wrote:
jneilnyc wrote:
there ya go - obviously the bass and drums are on tape, why can no one seem to get them into proper balance?

Why should they be in balance? This is rock n roll, itīs crazy, wild, dangerous, out of control...why should there be balance? This is out of control rock n roll, - the stooges, if you want everything in balance, there's always Radio and MTV friendly Green Day albums for you.

This is a really stupid comment. On the one hand you're saying that rock'n'roll should be wild and dangerous, but then you're totally OK with the fact that Raw Power's wildness and craziness was dialed way back in the studio by Bowie in some sort of misguided attempt at making it more commercial. (Obviously it didn't make it any more commercial, since it sold like crap, but the intent was there).

There there are crazy/wild/whatever bass and drum parts on those recordings - the sound of the Asheton half of the band playing their asses off. It's fine to have the Bowie mix available for it's arty qualities and historical value, but it's misleading to think that it's the best possible representation of what Iggy & The Stooges sounded like circa 1972/73.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:34 am

"best possible representation of what Iggy & The Stooges sounded like circa 1972/73."

That is on Rough Power,some of that stuff could had been released on the deluxe edition....
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:39 am

boogie wrote:
"best possible representation of what Iggy & The Stooges sounded like circa 1972/73."

That is on Rough Power,some of that stuff could had been released on the deluxe edition....

I guess that's just another shortcoming of the Sony package. All the debate in this thread is related to the Sony release, so back to the OP, it looks like Rhino nailed it better as we all seem to be on the same page about that release. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 12:57 am

Sure the Legacy remaster is a monumental celebration of RP,but nothing revolutionary for those who already have a vinyl copy of the Bowie mix.Except for the Georgia Peaches!
Same for the Rhino box if you already have the 2005 remaster. pirat
So i think that the greatest release of the year will be the remix of Kill City!
Anyway if the guys are gonna remix RP just make it sound like Doojiman,sounds awesome,nearly perfect.
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 1:07 am

jneilnyc wrote:


This is a really stupid comment. On the one hand you're saying that rock'n'roll should be wild and dangerous, but then you're totally OK with the fact that Raw Power's wildness and craziness was dialed way back in the studio by Bowie in some sort of misguided attempt at making it more commercial. (Obviously it didn't make it any more commercial, since it sold like crap, but the intent was there).

I don't agree, - I don't think Bowie had any serious intent on making it more commercial. I think he just wanted to put his own artistic "signature" on the album. Maybe the record company wanted to have a commercial record, but no-one can ever say that Bowie mix is commercial, - itīs way too out balanced mix to ever get radioplay. - You need to hear the bass, and you need to have a balanced mix with vocals and guitars to be anywhere near commercial - and everyone knew that, - and Bowie didn't give that. It's way too "arty" for radio...


jneilnyc wrote:

It's fine to have the Bowie mix available for it's arty qualities and historical value, but it's misleading to think that it's the best possible representation of what Iggy & The Stooges sounded like circa 1972/73.

I never said that Bowie mix is the best possible representation of what Iggy & The Stooges sounded like circa 1972/73, because it's not. The studio album has way too many vocal and guitar overdubs to represent the REAL sound of the band. No matter how much you mix the Raw Power album, - it's always going to be a studio album. - The live bonus tracks from the Atlanta Show on the new release are the best were ever gonna get... if you want the best possible representation of what Iggy & The Stooges REALLY sounded like

Look, I been listening to "Bowie RP mix" for ages and for me - thatīs the one and the only mix, - it's out of control and "artsy" and for me - it's more "psychedelic" too..

I don't really wanna have balanced mix of the Raw Power, cause the "out of controlness" of the mix is one of the things that makes it so special... Itīs like James Williamson said " nothing has ever sounded like Raw Power, not before or since then" --- and if you have a balanced mix, it could very easily be just another punk rock record (with great songs) and for me this record has to sound "out of control and wild."
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Thu May 06, 2010 1:15 am

It's not out of control. It's just lopsided.
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