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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 4:36 pm

boogie wrote:
Yeah...Iggy said it's weedy,JW didn't like it and Scott tossed it away like a frisbee...

That frisbee is what got James, Ron, and Scott into the Rock 'N Roll Hall of Fame. Without that frisbee, the Punk movement would have been much different. Here is what James says about it:

"I'm proud of it. I think it holds up pretty well, considering what transpired in the meantime with the various bands; you can see the influence and so on. (Laughs) There are a lot of tracks I'd like to take back and redo, maybe, but I don't have that option, so overall I'm pretty happy with it." - I-94 Bar

And in the same vein, here is what he says about Iggy's destruction of the original Raw Power:

"I personally think [the remixed Raw Power] sucked. I gotta tell ya that I like the IDEA of what he tried to do, and I talked to him about it, and there's a lot of factors involved, but at the time, none of us liked Bowie's mix, but given everything, Iggy, when he went in to mix it, he found out that the guy who had recorded it originally had not gotten a lot of level on certain things, like the bass and drums, especially the bass, so he didn't have a lot to work with. Then Iggy, on his mix, he left a bunch of guitar stuff on there that probably shouldn't have been left in, and just odds and ends. Bowie's not my favorite guy, but I have to say that overall, I think he did a pretty good job." - I-94 Bar interview

And here is what Ron Asheton said:

"Don Fleming goes, "You know what? When Iggy's Raw Power mix comes out, I'll bet you're gonna go -- we always used to say how bad the original David Bowie mix of Raw Power was -- Fleming's going, "When you hear Iggy's mix, I guarantee you're gonna say, 'Man, remember that great mix that David Bowie did?'" So I heard it, I got the advance copy from his manager, and listened to it. Then I called Fleming and I'm going, "Gee, Don, I just listened to Iggy's mix of Raw Power. Man, I sure loved that old David Bowie mix. Was it ever great."...Basically, all that Iggy did was take all the smoothness and all the effects off James [Williamson]'s guitar, so his leads sound really abrupt and stilty and almost clumsy, and he just put back every single grunt, groan, and word he ever said on the whole fuckin' soundtrack. He just totally restored everything that was cut out of him in the first mix, and I thought, Damn, I really did like the old mix better." I-94 Bar interview (a different one)

When you start saying who liked it and who hated it, you need to quote it in the proper context. Any good writer/author/research assistant/college student can tell you that.
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 4:53 pm

Rob Gallucci wrote:
Unless the Rollins rumour ever proves to be true, then sadly we will never get to hear The Stooges playing on those 8 studio cuts. That is all any of us "dissenters" are saying.

Is there really any doubt? 1) in the DVD the song "Raw Power" is played with just the bass pushed up in the mix, so it's clearly there on the multi-tracks and 2) there is plenty of bass and drums on the outtakes. It seems pretty clear to me that Iggy's claim that the fault lies in the original recordings is complete and utter bollocks.

As for a remix/remaster hybrid (the Bowie mix with the levels on the bass and drums pushed up), I'd love to hear it, but I wouldn't want it presented as a replacement of the orignal mix the way the '97 mix was. I think Iggy did an entire generation of listeners a disservice by making them think that his mix was what Raw Power was supposed to sound like.
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 5:35 pm

OK MJG now we know that RP was so ahead of its time that neither the Stooges themselves could relate to it back in the 70's.Cause it seems that they didn't like it at all back then...come on we all know they think the record is screwed up!No need to argue that the Bowie mix changed music history,is a masterpiece and way better than iggy remix.Personally i agree with Johnny Marr,that's it.
And what about LAMF?


Last edited by boogie on Fri May 07, 2010 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 5:53 pm

boogie wrote:
And what about LAMF?

I have to admit that I've only heard the Lost '77 Mixes version. How bad is the original?
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krugersoldier

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 5:59 pm

Probably the most sludgy sound ever released on a major label, but like Raw Power its a great record, rock n roll is SUPPOSED to sound sludgy LOL! I still think a lot of people miss the point because they love Ron and Scott so much , the air of mystery and the resulting impact of Raw Power would probably have been less if it had been well produced and I still say Iggys remix was appropriate for the time it was released and in spite of being inferior to the Bowie mix its legitimate, powerful and listenable.
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 5:59 pm

I have a copy of old Q magazine with Iggys interview. They ask him about the two mixes and he says:

" I like them both. My mix is loud and aggressive, David's mix is like an old vintage car, you have to give it an extra push to get the motor running, You really have to crank up the volume to enjoy the power of it. "


Last edited by Aku on Fri May 07, 2010 6:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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boogie

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 6:12 pm

I have to admit that I've only heard the Lost '77 Mixes version. How bad is the original?[/quote]

I've listened to the original once and i didn't like it,it's muddy,it doesn't cut.
I like the 77 mixes better!
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 6:31 pm

I hope the "Kill City" remix will also come out with the orginal mix...
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iggy-fan
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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 7:05 pm

James is very proud of his new remix of "Kill City" and it will come out in July on Bomp records. I see this record as one of the best ever behind "Raw Power" so it will be welcomed.

Ive got the Stooges box today (Had to pay fucking tax and customer fee on it). Its a really deluxe package with great photos. I think they have done a great job on it. Yes and it was not so much new on it but the "Asthma Attack" sounded really great and Im happy they released it.

I dont think we shall complain on Sony, Rhino or Easy Action because they obviously do releases with quality and with new stuff.
Other companies like Cleopatra (With horrible overdubs), Get Back, etc just remakes stuff in different formats and just trying to squeeze out as much they can.
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larry fine

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 7:49 pm

I wonder if everyone who is howling for a remix of Raw Power really thinks they would be happy with the results if it were done.

Some folks on this board seem to like to complain about almost everything and yet seem to believe that a remix would solve everything. We've heard two official mixes, a remaster of one of those mixes and some early mixes that have been bootlegged and none of them is perfect. Somehow, though, people think that a remix would be perfect and right the wrongs that have been perpetrated. Several people here have mixed recordings (myself included) and know that it is an inexact science and that no matter what you do someone thinks it should have been done differently.

I can only imagine the complaints from some of the less than satisfied posters once a remix came out. I will tell you this - the only remix that I would be totally happy with is one that I remixed. Until that unlikely occurence I don't much mind the mix that I've been listening to for 37 years. It has given me great pleasure and will, I'm sure, continue to. At 53 years of age I've learned to enjoy the little things in life - like a very nice remaster of one of the greatest LPs ever recorded. Things could always be better or different. Enjoying what they really are is a key to a very pleasant existence.

By the way - don't be too surprised if there isn't at least one more release from Sony of Stooges material. We all know that there are several tracks that they haven't released. Wouldn't the release of those be the perfect time to throw in a brand new remix? All 100% conjecture on my part, but that is how the record business works.
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 8:15 pm

iggy-fan wrote:
James is very proud of his new remix of "Kill City" and it will come out in July on Bomp records. I see this record as one of the best ever behind "Raw Power" so it will be welcomed.

Yeah, I agree...I'm lot more intrested in getting the "Kill City" remix than having another copy of Raw Power again...I always loved Kill City, but never liked that muddy mix of it, The songs are great, but the mix, so yeah, it's really welcomed...

However, lot of people are customed to Kill Citys sound, I used to compare Kill City to "Exile on Main Street" by the Rolling Stones. "Exile.." is another great classic album with a poor, muddy sound and great songs...

So maybe the "Kill City" package should also contain the orginal muddy mix...(Outtakes... If there areany, I hope)
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 8:17 pm

Freaking Out


Last edited by Aku on Sun May 09, 2010 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rob Gallucci

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 8:53 pm

[quote="Aku"]
steve2787 wrote:
..what more do you want ? A Blow job?

The music industry in general is concerned about falling CD sales - this would definitely bring a fresh approach to things. One hell of a deluxe edition!
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Rob Gallucci

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 9:55 pm

rubber legs wrote:
Rob Gallucci wrote:
Unless the Rollins rumour ever proves to be true, then sadly we will never get to hear The Stooges playing on those 8 studio cuts. That is all any of us "dissenters" are saying.

Is there really any doubt? 1) in the DVD the song "Raw Power" is played with just the bass pushed up in the mix, so it's clearly there on the multi-tracks and 2) there is plenty of bass and drums on the outtakes. It seems pretty clear to me that Iggy's claim that the fault lies in the original recordings is complete and utter bollocks.

As for a remix/remaster hybrid (the Bowie mix with the levels on the bass and drums pushed up), I'd love to hear it, but I wouldn't want it presented as a replacement of the orignal mix the way the '97 mix was. I think Iggy did an entire generation of listeners a disservice by making them think that his mix was what Raw Power was supposed to sound like.

I just watched the DVD on YouTube - you are so right. Jesus, the bass sounds awesomely powerful on that segment!!!

Totally agree with your comments on any further remix hybrid re-release. Love to hear that. Maybe one of these days.....
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Radiobirdman73

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 11:20 pm

Just my opinion - the Sony box is great. i love it and will treasure it for years to come.

Could Raw Power have been better? Sure, of course. If they had stuck with the formula developed on Sick of You, Tight Pants, Etc. the record would have sounded great.

Why were Ron & Scott mixed down so low? For artistic reasons on Bowie's part - nothing criminal is mixing the bass and drums down low. Bands have been doing this for FUCKING YEARS!@!!!!!

'97 mix - the drums and bass ARE louder. Just listen to Penetration.

Why weren't they louder? With James' guitar thundering so loud - there just isn't room for it. Ray Manzerack said the same thing back in '74 or '75. "there just isn't room for anyone else when you have James on guitar' or something to that effect, which is why they only played one show together.

It is what it is - a fucking great record that's flawed. James and Iggy were sitting there in the studio when the record was mixed - they could have said something...but they didn't.
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Aku



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 07, 2010 11:37 pm

Speakin of Bowie mix...
Most of you miss the point:

I'm Sick Of You, I Got A Right, ....etc and the orginal rough mix were straight rock n roll mixes, - and rejected by the record company and the Main Man (manager Tony De Fries)
So when they gave the tapes to Bowie, what was he gonna do ? Make another straight mix, -the kind of mix that Stooges would have been happy with... and get that rejected too...Had he done a "Really Good Kick Ass Rock n Roll Mix - the album would have never come out !!!

Search and Destroy would have never been released !!!

So, we should all be thankful for Bowie, - It was his mix -good or bad - that saved the SONGS !!! - and in the end - thatś what matters.

Thatś one of the reasons why I love Bowie's mix the most - It was his mix that saved the songs...
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StoogesFan



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Sat May 08, 2010 12:19 am

Iggy's original mix was rejected by the record company. Those of you who have heard the original mix of Search & Destroy will have an idea what the entire album would have sounded like if they had accepted it. Better or worse? You decide.

I don't think it mattered much to the record company how Bowie's mix sounded. They could use his name on the record and this would result in increased sales. Anyway, we should remember that Bowie's mix is still Iggy's mix in all but name. He was there while Bowie was working - and I doubt he would have been sitting quietly in a corner!
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specotron



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Sat May 08, 2010 12:52 am

Is either mix perfect? To the ears of the ego-driven mixers, probably yes. Personally, I never really thought one was better than the other. From 1973 to 1997, the only version I knew was the Bowie mix and Raw Power has always been my #2 favorite rock album (#1: Fun House). Along comes the Pop mix in 1997 and it was the opposite and equal to the Bowie mix. Both mixes are essential.

Perhaps Raw Power would have sounded better if was originally left to a true professional, but when all is said and done, we are lucky to have two mixes rather than one.
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coffeepotman



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Sat May 08, 2010 4:01 am

Maybe there will be a Rockband version of the album with the multitracks and then we can make what ever mix we want of it. There is a million Beatles remixes out there because of Rockband. Let's start a petition
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Radiobirdman73

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Sat May 08, 2010 4:15 am

coffeepotman wrote:
Maybe there will be a Rockband version of the album with the multitracks and then we can make what ever mix we want of it. There is a million Beatles remixes out there because of Rockband. Let's start a petition

it's too bad this forum doesn't have a 'like' and 'unlike' feature to quickly comment on posts. this one gets a big 'LIKE' in my book
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elvis plebsley



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Sat May 08, 2010 2:20 pm

Radiobirdman73 wrote:
Why were Ron & Scott mixed down so low? For artistic reasons on Bowie's part - nothing criminal is mixing the bass and drums down low. Bands have been doing this for FUCKING YEARS!@!!!!!

I suspect that Bowie was trying to emulate the Velvet Undeground's I Heard Her Call My Name which is both completely out of balance and a work of genius. Sundazed have released a mix on which you can finally hear moe, sterling and john, but it's not a patch on the original. I accept that The Stooges wanted to create a kick-ass rock and roll record, not an art-rock punk classic, but the latter is what we got. Iggy's mix seemed like an attempt to air-brush it out of existence. Had it orignally been coupled with a remaster of the Bowie mix, then that would be okay. I'd still hate what iggy did, but it wouldn't piss me off quite so much, because newcomers would be able to hear the original and understand (or be baffled by) why we were so exited about this record in the first place. I don't object to a more sympathetic mix, I'd like much the same for the Velvet Underground's VU and Another View, but I doubt that a balanced Raw Power will get this listener as excited as the original continues to do. So you can count me as one of those who are very happy with the Sony remaster.
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Triskell



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Tue May 11, 2010 2:02 am

The Stooges box set gets my vote! They had an easier job, though ... the original album mix is good, technically and artistically, the outtakes are good, and the Cale mixes are good (if you play them at the correct speed). Cale ran a tight ship, I guess.

Compare the mess the compilers for the Raw Power box had to work with ... neither the Bowie nor the Iggy mixes are entirely satisfactory (Or maybe it's okay mixes that were messed up in mastering), while the "Rough Power" mixes have problems of their own and may not have been available in decent copies ... a hopeless job, I'll give them two thumbs up for not screwing up completely.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Tue May 11, 2010 5:08 am

rubber legs wrote:
boogie wrote:
And what about LAMF?

I have to admit that I've only heard the Lost '77 Mixes version. How bad is the original?

Sorry boogie, just noticed this...I'll post in another (more appropriate) thread! Go to:

http://stoogesforum.freeforumboard.net/other-bands-f2/the-heartbreakers-t2134.htm#38405
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mghifi



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PostSubject: Re: Rhino vs. Sony   Fri May 14, 2010 9:08 am

I re-affirm my earlier comment. Sony at least didn't screw up in several ways involving the final product. Discs misslabled being the least of the Rhino problems. Having half of the tracks on disc 1 ( especially as they are all one of the key selling points of this reissue) playing too slow is a really lame oversight that comes down to no product supervision.
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