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 The Dolls vs The Stooges.

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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 2:42 am

mr.datsun wrote:
MJG196 wrote:
boogie wrote:
If only the stooges had their own Bob Gruen..........
I don't understand how you can love the Stooges and hate the Dolls. Just as there is a Holy Trinity of British R&R (Beatles/Stones/Who), the influence of another trinity (VU/Stooges/Dolls) is just as influential.


MJG, I don't agree with this trinity idea Ė the Dolls were not in the same league as Stooges, let alone The VU. They were recycling Chuck Berry with a NY drag aesthetic. There was nothing innovative about their sound. The next stage of NY innovation was Patti Smith, Television and then the likes of Mars and Teenage Jesus (who explicity rejected the tired Chuck Berry influence of UK punk and the NYDolls.

Well, that is not what the NY Scene believed. Though the Dolls' sound was not innovative, you have to put it in its proper context - the drum solos, the unending guitar noodling, the very un-Rock & Roll era...completely self indulgent. In terms of the New York Punk movement, outside of Iggy and Lou, it was the Dolls that influenced those guys. Sounds don't have to be innovative, but they have to hit at the right time to have an impact. Look at Nirvana for cryin' out loud! Nothing innovative there, but it was a right place/right time thing for them.

I wish Mindless was reading this thread...
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 2:44 am

elvis plebsley wrote:
mr.datsun wrote:
I'm glad in retrospect that the VU didn't record any new material when they reformed to top-up their pensions.

I don't know, given strong enough material. For example wouldn't Songs for Drella for be even better with Moe and Sterling on it?

Yes, it might have been. Given strong enough material and a strong enough reason for being together in a time and place. Most bands cannot recapture the original interpersonal, social and political spirit and tensions that made the material and work possible in the first place. I remember Cale saying that Reed demanded control over that project and Cale decided to acquiesce for the sake of the project and (I presume) his sanity. Already it was impossible to go back to the original model. But at least Cale and Reed tried for something new and mature with it.

Stooges are not young angry testosterone fuelled men any longer. How can they do that 'punk' thing they did in 1969-73 afresh without resorting to a kind of [edit] imitation of what they were?


Last edited by mr.datsun on Sun May 09, 2010 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 2:52 am

MJG196 wrote:
Though the Dolls' sound was not innovative, you have to put it in its proper context - the drum solos, the unending guitar noodling, the very un-Rock & Roll era...completely self indulgent. In terms of the New York Punk movement, outside of Iggy and Lou, it was the Dolls that influenced those guys. Sounds don't have to be innovative, but they have to hit at the right time to have an impact. Look at Nirvana for cryin' out loud! Nothing innovative there, but it was a right place/right time thing for them.

I wish Mindless was reading this thread...

You might be right. Maybe they were influential but then I'm probably one of the few people who lived through the UK punk era who liked the energy and spirit but thought the music often banal and unoriginal. The Stooges and VU sounded fresh to a teenager in 1973. By comparison, beyond the LP cover and the fact that they annoyed Annie Nightingale and Bob Harris, The Dolls sounded old school.

Uh... who's Mindless?


Last edited by mr.datsun on Sun May 09, 2010 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Perdu

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 3:41 am

from a private message with a musician obviously younger than me about "old guys" reuniting in bands--

Musician obviously younger than me: I saw The Stooges in London May 2nd. Didn't really know what to expect. I was shocked by the intensity of it.

Me: The Stooges, since they went their own way against the formulas of their day and just went with the intensity, still come off that way since they are still going their own way against the formulas of today and just going with the intensity.

You're a different generation than I am, and sometimes it's hard for people used to music today to understand that. Why was doing it their way more important than having a lucrative career? Well, sometimes people are born true artists, like Van Gogh, who wasn't successful at all in his own lifetime because he went his own way. Remember, James of the Stooges quit the music business entirely when it appeared he couldn't do it his own way. I'm glad he finally can with the rest of them.
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jimmyjimmy



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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 11:27 am

now that was fun! Good posting
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rathbone

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 11:33 am

it's only rock and roll

Sleep
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Rob Gallucci

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

As has been said earlier in this thread, the Dolls 1st album sounds as fresh today as when it was first released. I would happily recommend it to any Stooges fan that has not heard it.

It may not share a lot in terms of sound with the original Stooges, but does share some of the same spirit - virtually everyone hated The Dolls when they were first together, but they did their thing anyway. Like The Stooges, it takes balls to choose that path.

Roughly speaking, the Dolls took the sound of the Stones, dirtied it up, made it fun and accessible, and took a step towards what would become Punk rock (albeit a few steps behind The Stooges.) Thunders moved it on a bit further later with the Heartbreakers.

Soundwise, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine the JW era Stooges covering "Looking For A Kiss," or the Dolls covering "I Need Somebody."
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Radiobirdman73

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Mon May 10, 2010 12:30 am

Rob Gallucci wrote:
As has been said earlier in this thread, the Dolls 1st album sounds as fresh today as when it was first released. I would happily recommend it to any Stooges fan that has not heard it.

It may not share a lot in terms of sound with the original Stooges, but does share some of the same spirit - virtually everyone hated The Dolls when they were first together, but they did their thing anyway. Like The Stooges, it takes balls to choose that path.

Roughly speaking, the Dolls took the sound of the Stones, dirtied it up, made it fun and accessible, and took a step towards what would become Punk rock (albeit a few steps behind The Stooges.) Thunders moved it on a bit further later with the Heartbreakers.

Soundwise, it's not too much of a stretch to imagine the JW era Stooges covering "Looking For A Ki," or the Dolls covering "I Need Somebody."

Or Lonely Planet Boy.
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msteeln



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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Mon May 10, 2010 2:50 am

Would there have even been a NYD without The Stooges?
The Stooges were innovators and the Dolls were regurgitators, whom I liked.
But this clip shows the NYD at their best, for me anyway, and it barely comes close to any Stooges performance in nearly any manner one can mention http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhwSHw5kpec
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jneilnyc

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Mon May 10, 2010 8:37 pm

msteeln wrote:
Would there have even been a NYD without The Stooges?

Absolutely. The Dolls' roots go past the Stooges to the Stones and to R&B and the girl groups of the early 60s. The Dolls didn't form in reaction to the Stooges, but they did share common tastes and source materials (considering that Iggy played with blues bands and even the Shangri-Las at one point, who were a major influence on the Dolls) which they stripped down and amped up and topped off with a live presentation that was considered outrageous and shocking by people who are easily shocked.

Given some of the same influences, what the two bands did with them differed significantly, but they're more like each other than either was to most of what else was happening in rock in the early 70s.

I think it's obvious that the Stooges were more extreme in their approach, but that doesn't take anything away from what the Dolls did.
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trailerborn

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Mon May 10, 2010 11:35 pm

Iggy stole the giant bow-tie look from the Dolls, so he was obviously influenced a bit, at least visually. (See late '73 live pics & the early '74 Creem photo shoot w/ the smashed Raw Power LP's).

Ig & Johnny partied like fiends back in the day and Pop has had nothing but good things to say about Thunders' playing. I'm sure the Stooges considered the Dolls fellow travelers & vice-versa.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 11, 2010 4:15 am

msteeln wrote:
Would there have even been a NYD without The Stooges?

A stupid question. The better question would have been, "Would there have even been a NYD without the Shangri-Las?" The answer would most assuredly be NO. The Dolls were influenced by girl-groups and the Stones. Also, there was nothing as confrontational in the Dolls' stage act as there was with the Stooges. I don't know why people in this thread insist on comparing two completely different things. You can't do it.
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jneilnyc

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 11, 2010 8:19 am

Touring the midwest in makeup and women's fashions in 1973 was pretty confrontational in it's own way.
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davidh

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 11, 2010 9:04 am

You know, the reason I love music more than sport is that you don't have to choose a favourite band between two legends. I wouldn't want to carry on living without either of these groups.
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rathbone

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 11, 2010 12:05 pm

I mean this in the nicest possible way but I think some of you take all this a bit too seriously (MJG196).
I think tori amos ROCKS post was done with humour to wind you all up and you all played into there hands. I have never read such crap.
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jpod

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 11, 2010 7:38 pm

rathbone wrote:
I mean this in the nicest possible way but I think some of you take all this a bit too seriously (MJG196).
I think tori amos ROCKS post was done with humour to wind you all up and you all played into there hands. I have never read such crap.

totally agree. its obvious taR is a s**t stirrer, why even bother
(sigh)
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Rob Gallucci

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 11, 2010 11:26 pm

Whatever the motives for starting the topic, if you have any interest in the Dolls, and you have not seen the documentary "New York Doll" about bassist Arthur Kane, I recommend you check it out if you get the chance. It's one of the best music documentaries I've seen - a sad, but uplifting account of Arthur's life, and also a good insight into what the Dolls were about.
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larry fine

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Wed May 12, 2010 4:16 pm

Radiobirdman73 wrote:
Petrie Terrace wrote:
Radiobirdman73 wrote:
Oh yeah, I hear lots of JEFF BECK is James' playing. Just tons.

You want a medal for being ignorant? Or just the chance to show it off?

Yes - please elucidate my ignorance and your obvious intellectual supremacy once again. But first...

Can you draw a compositional comparison to Beck, or is it the technical virtuosity you're referring to?

Last time I checked, Beck doesn't even use a fucking pick - and James' playing is based on a lightning fast strum hand....with a pick. Jeff uses the tremolo bar like a separate instrument, whereas James doesn't use a tremolo at all. James plays riffs, whereas Jeff plays single note speed runs....shall I continue, or has it become obvious again that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and just camp out here to make people look inferior with your witty and engaging commentary?

Oh I know - it must have been the haircut you were talking about, or the size of their cocks. prick

See, you're comparing today's Jeff Beck with James Williamson. When Raw Power was released James' style of guitar playing was like almost no one else's. His chording was very manic. Precise, but manic. His lead playing was sharp, fast, electric, searing, hot - I could go on. If one took a look around at that time to try and figure out who his influences were there were not a lot of obvious antecedents. Clapton, Page, Hendrix, Peter Green and their white boys playing the blues based ilk didn't fit the bill. There was no C&W influence or Rockabilly. It really was a very novel style for the time. The only two people who would come close would be Keith Richards and Jeff Beck. And, in truth, the Keith influence showed up much more around the time of Kill City.

If you listen to Beck's playing on some of the great Yardbirds recordings (a band which had only broken up about 5 years earlier, at that point) you can hear traces of Williamson. Shapes of Things, Over,Under,Sideways,Down, Heart Full of Soul, Happenings Ten Years Time Ago and a handful of others would seem to be where James took some inspiration. At that time Beck didn't use all of the pickless, whammy bar trickery that is his current stock in trade (and that he is great at and that leave him as probably the only 60's guitar god who is still making thoughtful, meaningful use of his talents).

James didn't pull his style out of thin air. He had to have been influenced by someone and if not Jeff Beck, then who? I suppose you could make the case that, if he ever heard the likes of Otis Rush and his great, slashing guitar playing that it could have been an influence. I have no way of knowing if he ever heard Otis Rush or any of the great Blues players at that time. He almost certainly would have to have been aware of The Yardbirds and Jeff Beck.
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Wed May 12, 2010 5:41 pm

Stooges, If I had to choose, but luckily I don't Cool
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mghifi



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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Sun May 16, 2010 9:10 am

The Dolls vs.The Stooges? It's like comparing apples and oranges. This is a pretty pointless comparison imho. Both were great in their own unique ways and style.
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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Wed May 19, 2010 2:55 am

As far as being relevant, I think both bands are at least close to being equally important. The Dolls without a doubt developed a look that is still seen all over the place today. No shortage of Johnny Thunders wannabes out there. However, I think more of the Stooges' musical approach can be heard in today's music...and I think part of this fact can be attributed to the Stooges doing different things musically. Most def. were much more in tune w/ Jazz + the avant-garde than the Dolls, who were more or less just a straight ahead rock n roll band.

Still, both are personal favorites.

I like this thread...thanks Mr./Ms. Amos.
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jimmyjimmy



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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Wed May 19, 2010 5:37 pm

I agree with the above, more threads like this to get the blood pumping.
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coffeepotman



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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 25, 2010 4:32 am

I just saw the Dolls in Brooklyn the other night, this is like the 15th time since they got together again and they are just awesome. Don't get me wrong, I love the Stooges and have seen them many times since they got back together but the Dolls really blow them away live. There is a joy and love onstage that the Stooges just don't have, plus they are fun and don't take themselves so seriously. It's only Rock and Roll.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 25, 2010 5:21 am

coffeepotman wrote:
I just saw the Dolls in Brooklyn the other night, this is like the 15th time since they got together again and they are just awesome. Don't get me wrong, I love the Stooges and have seen them many times since they got back together but the Dolls really blow them away live. There is a joy and love onstage that the Stooges just don't have, plus they are fun and don't take themselves so seriously. It's only Rock and Roll.

...but I like it. Yes I do.
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the5thramone37
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PostSubject: Re: The Dolls vs The Stooges.   Tue May 25, 2010 5:59 am

coffeepotman wrote:
I just saw the Dolls in Brooklyn the other night, this is like the 15th time since they got together again and they are just awesome. Don't get me wrong, I love the Stooges and have seen them many times since they got back together but the Dolls really blow them away live. There is a joy and love onstage that the Stooges just don't have, plus they are fun and don't take themselves so seriously. It's only Rock and Roll.

How was that show? I almost went but decided against the 4 hour drive at the last minute.
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