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 Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!

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unheard78



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PostSubject: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat May 29, 2010 4:13 am

A lot of us agree that disc three isn't nearly as worthwhile as the rest of the set, and I've definitely got my issues with it too. I'm pretty convinced that the Embassy Reels aren't different mixes apart from S&D which makes the inclusion of two tracks from it that aren't S&D pointless, but I'm quite fascinated with the Iggy remixes on it. Am I the only one who thinks they sound like they were mastered much cooler than the full Iggy remix CD? I haven't studied the wave forms or done a side by side comparison yet, but the Iggy remix CD is unlistenable to my ears whereas the Deluxe Edition versions are actually pretty damn nice sounding. If Iggy's remix hadn't sounded so goddamned hot then it might have been closer to perfect.

Also, what's up with the alternate take of I Got A Right? Where did they find it? Having not listened to the completed IGAR sessions/mixes, I don't know if it's an alternate take from the same sessions, but it was listed as unreleased and it sounds SO MUCH CLEANER than any version I've ever heard before. Wish I could say the same about I'm Sick Of You, which does sound okay but nowhere close to the sonic upgrade of IGAR.

All of this brings up one more issue not directly related to the third disc of the Deluxe Edition but definitely related to the Raw Power debacle: Are there any alternate mixes of the Raw Power sessions circulating that aren't as well known as the ones we discuss here all the time? To be specific, here is a list of the versions I know of:

Bowie Mix
Embassy Bowie Mix (same as Bowie Mix but with alternate Search & Destroy)
WABX tape
Rough Power rough mixes (first seven tracks)
additional Rough Power mixes (last three tracks)
Shake Appeal 10" (all of these are on Rough Power, right?)
'97 Iggy Remix

Are there additional mixes circulating that I didn't mention? Also, whatever happened to Henry Rollins finding the RP tapes? Were they the unmixed masters? Additional unreleased rough mixes? The original Iggy mix? An unfussed with copy of the Bowie mix without the shitty mastering? The Ark Of The Covenant? Help me Obi-Wan! HELP ME!!!
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ashitanoramen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat May 29, 2010 9:38 am

The I got a right version comes from London sessions at the Olympic studios,17-21 july 1972.The same one that appears in the heavy liquid box, track 17(different drums+solo)
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stooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat May 29, 2010 10:39 am

Shake Appeal and Death Trip, sounds very much like a mix of Bowie CD 1 and gimme danger and pretty face sounds like a mix iggy 97


is this normal? or I'm just deaf?
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat May 29, 2010 2:52 pm

Quote :
Wish I could say the same about I'm Sick Of You, which does sound okay but nowhere close to the sonic upgrade of IGAR.


I'm disappointed that each release of this seems not just mono but normally seem to contain vinyl 'pops'. I haven't done A-B checking of each release, but I'm surprised to this day that each release of it seems like it could do better. It's a great song! Deserves a stereo remix...nowadays the technology is there to do very convincing stereo mixes even when multitracks are lost.

Similar comments apply re Scene of the Crime, although seems to have less 'pops' when it, erm, pops up on CD (ie not on the disc 3 here oddly... Crying or Very sad ).

However if these issues couldn't be sorted out for the prestigious Raw Power deluxe set, guess they never will...
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cantona7



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat May 29, 2010 3:15 pm

unheard78 wrote:
I'm quite fascinated with the Iggy remixes on it. Am I the only one who thinks they sound like they were mastered much cooler than the full Iggy remix CD? I haven't studied the wave forms or done a side by side comparison yet, but the Iggy remix CD is unlistenable to my ears whereas the Deluxe Edition versions are actually pretty damn nice sounding. If Iggy's remix hadn't sounded so goddamned hot then it might have been closer to perfect.



I totally agree about the mastering of the 2 iggy mixed tracks on CD3, they sound much better than they do on the iggy remixed cd, a whole albums worth of that mix mastered in that way would be great.

The version of IGOR is on CD1 of Heavy Liquid and you are right that Im sick of you doesnt sound that great. The best sounding one has to be on the Million in Prizes compilation where the 3 pre-Raw Power songs sound great. Its just a mastering thing though as there is only one version of that song. The single versions of S and D and Raw Power sound the same as the standard Bowie mixed album versions to these ears.

Youre list of RP mixes looks spot on to me.
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modernlover

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat May 29, 2010 6:47 pm

- The soundtrack of The Life Aquatic has the Iggy mix of Search and Destroy without the added digital distortion on the Raw Power remix CD caused by cutting it so hot. It sounds better to my ears.

- Then there's the mono mix of Search and Destroy on the promo 7" mentioned elsewhere in the forums. Easily downloadable off a helpful blog somewhere.

- And for the WABX Iggy rough mixes, you need a non-Bomp version as they added echo etc to make them sound better - I got a good download from somewhere.

Now getting more esoteric...

- I seem to remember (but for the life of me can't find where) reading that the version of Penetration on the Sundazed issue of Search and Destroy 7" sounds very different. Their site says they are the "original Mainman mixes". Possibly there was a different mastering job for the original 7" release and they used this. Maybe the changes in sound came when Sundazed mastered it for 7".

- I'll bet the Colombia 'Play Back' promo (I think for playing in record shops) of Shake Appeal/Search and Destroy sounds different too with both tracks crammed on one side of a 7" - at 3.00 and 3.16 respectively, it looks like they're (minor) edits at least. See p171 of Robert Matheu's book.

I think the Embassy mix and mono mix of Search and Destroy were shocking omissions from Raw Power deluxe. Cleaned up un-Bomped WABX tapes would have been nice too.
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Stranger09



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 12:15 am

Quote :

I think the Embassy mix and mono mix of Search and Destroy were shocking omissions from Raw Power deluxe. Cleaned up un-Bomped WABX tapes would have been nice too.

Yes, that's fair comment Sad

Clearly this is all we're going to get though.

It's like the Bowie catalogue..."I'm never going to stop the rain by complaining"! Smile
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stooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 12:18 am

I do not understand some of the songs on Raw Power box set ... best to put a bowie + iggy mix ... live in Atlanta and rarities .... head on, im sick of you i got a right I think are unnecessary in this album ...
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unheard78



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 3:43 am

Just did a little comparison that I thought you might find interesting. I loaded up the Bowie, Embassy Reel and Embassy vinyl mixes of Shake Appeal and did a quick comparison between all three. The Embassy Reel and vinyl mixes, while basically the same as the Bowie mix, definitely have a little something extra in there and are clearly identical. The Bowie mix is just a little flatter. It's probably all a minor EQ difference, but interesting nonetheless.

I also did a three-way comparison of the Death Trip versions and found that all three are 100% identical, at least to these ears. I guess that means the Embassy Reels are the same as the Embassy vinyl mix, which reaffirms the questions: Why isn't the Embassy mix of S&D included? I know I'm preaching to the choir the same thing everyone else is saying but why would you include two tracks that are basically the same as the regular versions on the crazy deluxe edition?
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 7:50 am

unheard78 wrote:
Just did a little comparison that I thought you might find interesting. I loaded up the Bowie, Embassy Reel and Embassy vinyl mixes of Shake Appeal and did a quick comparison between all three. The Embassy Reel and vinyl mixes, while basically the same as the Bowie mix, definitely have a little something extra in there and are clearly identical. The Bowie mix is just a little flatter. It's probably all a minor EQ difference, but interesting nonetheless.

I also did a three-way comparison of the Death Trip versions and found that all three are 100% identical, at least to these ears. I guess that means the Embassy Reels are the same as the Embassy vinyl mix, which reaffirms the questions: Why isn't the Embassy mix of S&D included? I know I'm preaching to the choir the same thing everyone else is saying but why would you include two tracks that are basically the same as the regular versions on the crazy deluxe edition?

Got a visual for that? Would be interesting to see.
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 4:20 pm

modernlover wrote:


- I seem to remember (but for the life of me can't find where) reading that the version of Penetration on the Sundazed issue of Search and Destroy 7" sounds very different. Their site says they are the "original Mainman mixes". Possibly there was a different mastering job for the original 7" release and they used this. Maybe the changes in sound came when Sundazed mastered it for 7".

I have the sundazed single. It sounds very good but I can't hear any real differences to other versions (e.g. 80s CD, 73 LP). If there are differences when I listen then they are in tonal reproduction and just as likely a result of the medium. The single actually says 'from the Columbia LP Raw Power KC32111' on both side, if that's any help.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 5:46 pm

This release is really botched, that's all I can I say, the only value is the packaging.

I'm from the school thinking that clearly, history needs to be respected, but when an original issue is botched, you don't reprint it forever you correct it and it's the version that stays. The original US release of RP, from 1973, was a disaster technically. The drummer admit in the documentary he trew it across the garden, so disappointed he was when compared to the tape.

Then the Embassy came out, which sounds to me like a "corrected" version. It's this version that should be preserved on CD for posterity, not the crappy one.

So what does Sony do ? Remaster that same botched US version for the masses. Talk about missing the point.

What the team should have done to justify the hype "this new remaster is a revelation", is include the complete Embassy tapes on CD 1, mastered to sound just like the Embassy LP is mastered. It's easy to do for any competent engineer with the help of the vinyl rip to compare to. The EQ can be redone all it takes is no more than three days to achieve this to perfection.

The bad, thin sounding mix of Search & Destroy that is on CD1 and on the original US LP should have been relegated to a bonus track on CD 3.

And the crappy sounding RP LP should then have been a memory. But no, instead we got a better mastered version of the crappy sounding version.

It's not the crappy US version that made Raw Power famous. It's the Embassy one.

Back to square one.
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homesickjameswilliamson
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 6:11 pm

when i first heard about this boxset i was hoping they'd have the bowie mix and iggy mix on two CDs,or one

but now i think a 4CD boxset would be cool to have

disc 1 - Bowie Mix
disc 2 - embassy mix
disc 3 - iggy mix
disc 4- georgia peaches + extra tracks

dont think its entirely marketable to anyone other than the few of us on here to have 3 mixes of one album, but it would be cool
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stooges

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 6:41 pm

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:
when i first heard about this boxset i was hoping they'd have the bowie mix and iggy mix on two CDs,or one

but now i think a 4CD boxset would be cool to have

disc 1 - Bowie Mix
disc 2 - embassy mix
disc 3 - iggy mix
disc 4- georgia peaches + extra tracks

dont think its entirely marketable to anyone other than the few of us on here to have 3 mixes of one album, but it would be cool


agree! except the second disc i mean embassy mix ... it sounds very much like the Bowie mix Some song are really unnecessary for raw power box set.....
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sun May 30, 2010 8:30 pm

seventeen wrote:
It's not the crappy US version that made Raw Power famous. It's the Embassy one.

Back to square one.

Seventeen,

Not really back to square one. I have the original UK LP from 1973. The only difference between it and the Legacy remaster is Search and Destroy, which, yes is a different mix on Legacy. I call the Legacy version, the thin & weedy S&D mix. In all other aspects the Legacy remaster is the same but has better sound reproduction.

I do agree that using the the UK 73 version of S&D would have been preferable but the idea that a whole different and better sounding version of the album exists somewhere seems to be based on hearsay without some concrete evidence.

If there is a different (so-called) Embassy mix that sounds radically different to the Legacy remaster and the 73 LP, then I'd really like to hear it. And I don't mean a CDR copy of a very bad cassette, I mean a half-decent vinyl rip*.

My only other point is that a remaster of the Bowie mix with the full sounding S&D released as a single CD would have been more than sufficient.

* update. please see your inbox for more on the so-called Embassy mix.
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cantona7



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PostSubject: there is no embassy mix   Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:57 am

I think mr datsun is right on this. There is no evidence of an embassy mix.

I have the original UK vinyl press and the original embassy press. The embassy is the same as the original UK vinyl press with the different search and destroy being the only differently mixed song. The rest is the same as the US version and by the time the vinyl was repressed on CBS 32083 in the UK in 1981 the US version of s and d was on there as well.

I think both versions o S and D were mixed by bowie to be honest as the heavier s and d actually fits with the rest of the album better than the thinner (and more common) version.

The other thing about the embassy vinyl as it is a worse pressing than the original UK, not a great surprise as embassy was CBS's budget label and this does give it a slightly grittier but definitely not a differerently mixed sound.

My ideal Embassy deluxe would be:

CD1 the bowie mix with both versions of S and D so you can choose which to listen too or listen to both!

CD2 Georgia Peaches without Doojiman and Head On

CD3 the five pre Raw Power demos, Doojiman, Hey Peter and I'm Hungry and then the whole Iggy Mixed Raw Power mastered the same way as the Gimme Danger and Pretty Face are on the released CD3, which do sound much better than the Iggy mixed CD.

For me that would be the full story of this great album
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TeddyB1018



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:25 am

cantona7 wrote:


I think both versions o S and D were mixed by bowie to be honest as the heavier s and d actually fits with the rest of the album better than the thinner (and more common) version.

Iggy was widely quoted at the time that he insisted they use "Iggy's mix" for Search and Destroy. I agree that the alternate Embassy mix sounds likely to be "Bowie's mix", in the sense that it sounds like it was the mix done at the same Western Sound sessions as the rest of the album.
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:23 pm

mr.datsun wrote:
Not really back to square one. I have the original UK LP from 1973. The only difference between it and the Legacy remaster is Search and Destroy, which, yes is a different mix on Legacy. I call the Legacy version, the thin & weedy S&D mix. In all other aspects the Legacy remaster is the same but has better sound reproduction.

Well said. There seems to be a growing mythology about an entire alternate Embassy mix. This is a complete fiction. S&D is the only track that is different between the US and UK versions of the LP.
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:39 pm

rubber legs wrote:


Well said. There seems to be a growing mythology about an entire alternate Embassy mix. This is a complete fiction. S&D is the only track that is different between the US and UK versions of the LP.

I don't want to deny that some people e.g funhouse, above, have had a very different experience or memory of the sound of Raw Power and that the current remaster fails to live up to those memories/expectations. But I'd very much like to hear what that memory is based on for myself.
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StoogesForever69

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:18 am

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:
when i first heard about this boxset i was hoping they'd have the bowie mix and iggy mix on two CDs,or one

but now i think a 4CD boxset would be cool to have

disc 1 - Bowie Mix
disc 2 - embassy mix
disc 3 - iggy mix
disc 4- georgia peaches + extra tracks


I'd wish they've done this. Maybe include Iggys Original Mix (Pre-Bowie) Very Happy
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scoh



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:25 am

seventeen wrote:


It's not the crappy US version that made Raw Power famous. It's the Embassy one.


I have to say, I really think you're overstating this issue.

We know the Embassy version of the album was a limited pressing in 1973 released on a budget label, quickly replaced by the regular CBS pressing, right?

We also know Raw Power did not sell in any great quantities when it was originally released.

So the vast majority of the Punk generation would have experienced that album after word had spread on the Punk scene a couple of years later - by which time the CBS version would have been the standard pressing.

I don't doubt there were people who later became involved in Punk who purchased the Embassy album in 1973, but they would have most likely been a very small minority. So the album which "made Raw Power famous" would most likely have been the CBS version.

And one other thing is very important to take into account. Raw Power has become much more famous in hindsight than it ever was during the 1970's. Even during the 1980's, when I got deep into Punk, Raw Power was an album rarely mentioned in the few available books or publications which focused upon the genre and it's associated sub-cultures. Back then it wasn't even routinely stocked by record stores. You'd have to place a special order if you wanted it. I remember well the difficulty I had getting hold of one.

So again, it's later generations experiencing later CBS pressings who have spread the word and built up/sustained the reputation.

Ironically, it could be argued that by constantly promoting the Embassy version you have proven that latter point. Because until you began shouting it's name on the Internet nobody seemed to have felt any great signifigance toward it, or even remembered it ever existed.

The simple fact is that Raw Power was made famous by the music it contained. The average LP buyer in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's did not have the audiophile tendencies or concerns which have become more common to regular listeners in the wake of the digital age's flood of remastered and remixed albums.

If any mastering difference ever had a hand in making Raw Power famous, it was the Bowie production issue - which has fuelled discussion amongst fans for decades.
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seventeen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:51 am

Only because they never heard the Embassy LP -- once you hear it, there's no debate of the mix. It's this version that made Raw Power legendary. As you say, the original went straight to the bargain bins, and dustbins.
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ashitanoramen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:01 am

Maybe in five years,like rhino has done with the stooges album,we'll have another raw power edition,the super extra maxi deluxe handmade collectors limited edition(you could buy it only doing a test on some website),for 200 bucks with maybe the embassy reels or just five or six new tracks... What a Face
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unheard78



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:48 pm

Sorry Seventeen, gotta agree with scoh that the Embassy version couldn't have had much to do with much of anything, at least from where most people are standing. I'm not trying to start an argument here, but if it's so important why are we only discovering it now? And to be honest, while I find the alt mix of S&D interesting, I still end up preferring the standard Bowie mix. The echo chamber drums really get on my nerves.

It's funny, I did a rip of the Sundazed vinyl of RP last night that I think sounds great, especially after I manually declicked it despite it being the first time I'd ever played the record. Anyway, my point is that when I normalized the record, I did it by side so the dynamics were unchanged from how they appear on the record. For shits and giggles I did an individualized normalization of S&D and was blown away by how insane it sounds loud. Practically blew my ears off, but still tinny. Oh, and my Sundazed vinyl was in perfect stereo too, since I know there were concerns regarding their repressing of the album and an earlier rip circulating.

The only way we're EVER gonna be satisfied with a mix of RP is if we do it ourselves, plain and simple. It's nice to see those multi-tracks of S&D from Guitar Hero or whatever but we need an uncompressed version of all the tracks. Only then could we potentially make a clean mix.

Real quick off topic, hey ashita! Got Trainman and I'm gonna watch it this weekend! I'll let you know what I think.
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ashitanoramen

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:13 pm

well done unheard78!!!
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