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 Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!

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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:53 pm

scoh wrote:
We know the Embassy version of the album was a limited pressing in 1973 released on a budget label, quickly replaced by the regular CBS pressing, right?

Nope, the Embassy label issue is a reissue, late seventies/early eighties?, the original UK issue is on CBS, as is the other UK reissue from 1977 (the second UK CBS issue has a different label design to the original, and doesn't have the Iggy-photo inner sleeve, it also has the horror lettering on the front where the original had no text at all).

The CBS/Embassy reissues are for certain the ones most people in the UK heard first, the original UK album with the alternate S&D mix was pressed in quite small quantities and sold poorly. The reissues, on the other hand, were everywhere you went for years. RP was even in the CBS "Nice Price" range of classic albums for several years, and retailed at a lower than standard album price. Hence the tears on the front covers of lots of UK reissues (from people trying to peel off the big "Nice Price" sticker)

I know there was a Yugoslavian issue, but I've never found out what that plays, re S&D mix. Anyone know?

I'm certainly up for being able to remix my own RP. No vocals? "Sorry, they just weren't recorded right at the time".
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mr.datsun

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:33 am

With regards the 'legend-making' Embassy mix:

If the 3rd CD has two of the so-called Embassy mixes on it then why is no one raving about how much better they sound than the 'standard' release versions on the 1st CD?

What are those two tracks like? (for the benefit of us who will not buy the deluxe set.)
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:48 am

I'm making no claims for the Embassy version one way or the other, I haven't owned a copy in years. My recollection is that it was a re-EQed version of the CBS re-issue. Maybe it does sound better that way?

From what I've gathered the Embassy tracks on the box have been re-EQed again for the new release, and have lost something in the process. But an Embassy label RP usually sells for about 10 should anyone want to hear it, it's not rare, and it's a lot cheaper than the lame RP box.
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MJG196

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:36 am

unheard78 wrote:
Sorry Seventeen, gotta agree with scoh that the Embassy version couldn't have had much to do with much of anything, at least from where most people are standing. I'm not trying to start an argument here, but if it's so important why are we only discovering it now? And to be honest, while I find the alt mix of S&D interesting, I still end up preferring the standard Bowie mix. The echo chamber drums really get on my nerves.

I'm with scoh and unheard78. How the hell could the Embassy version have had any impact at all when hardly any were pressed? And the insane amount of audiophile analysis that is present on forums like this simply wasn't around back then, because the cost of an audiophile-quality system was extraordinarily expensive back then. Like it or not, the version of the LP that impacted the Punk crowd was the CBS pressing. Period. And beyond that, the version that had the biggest impact on the late-80s/early 90s crowd was the horrendous 1988 Columbia/CBS CD. NOT the Embassy one. Like it or not, the Embassy S&D is an oddity/alternative mix that should be separated from the CBS version everyone has been familiar with over the past 30+ years.
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Petrie Terrace
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:28 am

Just to avoid any confusion about what I meant, as reading back there are a couple of angles being discussed at once.

The majority of people in the UK would have heard RP via the reissues on CBS and then Embassy. They outsold the original issue massively, not least because punk had created a market for them. But anyone in a first wave UK punk band who took an influence from RP would have known it from the original issue, as there were no RP reissues until 1977, and almost all the main bands were formed in '75/76.

Re there being "hardly any" copies of the Embassy issue pressed, that's not the case. It's less common than the CBS reissue, but it's far from rare. The original CBS issue is easily the rarest of the UK pressings.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:27 am

I just downloaded a 24/96 rip of the US 1973 CBS. It has the full version of S&D but it had very extended sounding (I would say flabby) bass sound overall and for a while sounded different to my copy when on my hifi. But it's still the same version when A/B'd in itunes and probably the different bass is the result of the sound system/eq of the rip.

I still suspect the legendary so-called Embassy reels are a warm nostalgic feeling created in the minds of those who heard it back in the mists of time when hifi's had loudness buttons.
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unheard78



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:18 pm

Okay, let's clear something up really quick... Only the early UK pressing had the alternate mix of Search and Destroy, right? Or did any of the Embassy pressings have it too? If only the early UK ones had it, then why the hell would the guys at Sony name that master the Embassy Reels? It makes no sense and gives me a headache. Also, where does the cassette master come into play? It's the same as the early UK vinyl release apart from having a few tracks moved around, right?

Anyway, if the early UK vinyl and cassette releases are the only ones with the alternate mix of S&D, then that makes the Embassy version the same as every other master, albeit maybe with slightly different EQ settings. If that's the case, no matter how many Embassy versions were pressed and purchased, it's importance is minimal because it's the same as almost every other version of the album, although it was probably important for it's time with regards to British punks.

Now, if the Embassy version DID have the alternate S&D, then it is rather important, although that's the only real difference between any other version of the album. That difference is enough to change the album's reputation within the British punk community, but the Embassy pressing wasn't available for too long, was it? If it was a limited release, I still believe it's status isn't that important, but it may have been the first place that "modern" British punks would have first the album, and the version of S&D they would have heard would have been the alt mix.

I feel kinda loopy after writing all that. Anyone wanna help me out here?
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:30 pm

in response to mr datsun I have the two 'embassy tracks' on the deluxe. They are the same as the standard bowie mix.

also just to be clear in response to others, the different s and d is on the first 1973 UK CBS and the first 1977 embassy pressing. there was another embassy which has the standard mix a bit later, after that all the UK issues had the standard mix. I have all of the presses I refer to here.

even though I think the only difference with the embassy is s and d and a cheaper mastering it is the one that was relaesed in the UK in 1977 when UK punks were discovering the godfather of punk for the first time, so the 'embassy' is the one most UK punks heard first.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:08 pm

I had no idea their was an earlier pressing of the Embassy album, many thanks for the heads up Cantona7! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:19 pm

cantona7 wrote:
in response to mr datsun I have the two 'embassy tracks' on the deluxe. They are the same as the standard bowie mix.

also just to be clear in response to others, the different s and d is on the first 1973 UK CBS and the first 1977 embassy pressing. there was another embassy which has the standard mix a bit later, after that all the UK issues had the standard mix. I have all of the presses I refer to here.

even though I think the only difference with the embassy is s and d and a cheaper mastering it is the one that was relaesed in the UK in 1977 when UK punks were discovering the godfather of punk for the first time, so the 'embassy' is the one most UK punks heard first.

Could you please tell us matrix numbers of both Embassy LPs? My version ("02-31464-1A-1" on side 1 & "EMB02-31464-S-65586-2B-1" on side 2) has the standard mix of S&D...
Thanks!
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:32 pm

There are at least 2 versions of the Embassy pressing. The one that seems to be more common has the standard mix of S&D. I don't think that the version with the alternate S&D was pressed in large quantities.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:21 pm

cantona7 wrote:
in response to mr datsun I have the two 'embassy tracks' on the deluxe. They are the same as the standard bowie mix.

also just to be clear in response to others, the different s and d is on the first 1973 UK CBS and the first 1977 embassy pressing. there was another embassy which has the standard mix a bit later, after that all the UK issues had the standard mix. I have all of the presses I refer to here.

even though I think the only difference with the embassy is s and d and a cheaper mastering it is the one that was relaesed in the UK in 1977 when UK punks were discovering the godfather of punk for the first time, so the 'embassy' is the one most UK punks heard first.

This is wonderful! Thank you for the details cantona7!

I'm probably going to have to send you a PM cantona7, but I was wondering how many variants of Raw Power do you have? Also, do you rip vinyl? I'd be interested in discussing a trade with you if you do rip vinyl.
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cantona7



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:24 pm

First UK press CBS 65586 matrix nos are S65586 A1 and B1

1977 Embassy press CBS Embassy S31464 matrix numbers S31464 A1 and B1

the ones of these I have both have the different S and D mix but others, including tyrone hell on this forum, have said that the embassy with the same numbers as I have given above is the standard bowie mix. I think some have the alt s and d and some dont.

my 1981 CBS 32083 has the standard bowie mix s and d and has matrix numbers 32083 A5 and confusingly 31464 B3

in conclusion then the sure way to get the alt s and d is to buy CBS 65586 or take a chance on the embassy. the former costs 20-30 on ebay the latter 10-20.

I have no direct knowledge of the cassettes but others here have said here that the original CBS cassette has the same mix as the original vinyl.

I cant rip vinyl at the mo but will get my kit out again over the next month or so when I am less busy at work.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:34 pm

cantona7 wrote:
First UK press CBS 65586 matrix nos are S65586 A1 and B1

1977 Embassy press CBS Embassy S31464 matrix numbers S31464 A1 and B1

the ones of these I have both have the different S and D mix but others, including tyrone hell on this forum, have said that the embassy with the same numbers as I have given above is the standard bowie mix. I think some have the alt s and d and some dont.

my 1981 CBS 32083 has the standard bowie mix s and d and has matrix numbers 32083 A5 and confusingly 31464 B3

in conclusion then the sure way to get the alt s and d is to buy CBS 65586 or take a chance on the embassy. the former costs 20-30 on ebay the latter 10-20.

I have no direct knowledge of the cassettes but others here have said here that the original CBS cassette has the same mix as the original vinyl.

I cant rip vinyl at the mo but will get my kit out again over the next month or so when I am less busy at work.
Many thanks for the info, Cantona7.
Does the ("good") Embasssy LP sound better -or different- than the original UK CBS? I've been told (or I read somewhere here) it was eq'd.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:41 pm

The reason I ask cantona7, and this could also be posed to jpstooges, is because I'd like to get a 24 Bit, 96 khz rip of the initial UK Raw Power. If either of you would like to discuss this, I'd be more than happy to tell you about what vinyl I have to rip and what my equipment can do. And thanks for the info cantona7, these are details I've been wondering about for quite a while.

jpstooges, you did the rip of the initial UK pressing that's doing the rounds, right? That was a nice quality rip!
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:04 pm

My undertanding is that the "good" Emabssy pressing is this one:



And the "bad" one is this one:



At least I hope so, since I just gave away my second copy of the one with the label on the bottom.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:24 pm

rubber legs wrote:
My undertanding is that the "good" Emabssy pressing is this one:

This is my Embassy LP, and it's NOT the good one (US mix of S&D)!
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:30 pm

jpstooges wrote:
This is my Embassy LP, and it's NOT the good one (US mix of S&D)!

Dammit! I thought I had this one cracked. I'm pretty sure that someone said they had this one and it had the "good" mix of S&D. I have owned two copies of the bottom label version and one definitely had the US mix of S&D. I didn't even bother listening to the other, since I assumed it would be the same. I'm going to have to email the guy I sent it to and see which mix of S&D is on that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:47 pm

unheard78 wrote:
Okay, let's clear something up really quick... Only the early UK pressing had the alternate mix of Search and Destroy, right? Or did any of the Embassy pressings have it too? If only the early UK ones had it, then why the hell would the guys at Sony name that master the Embassy Reels? It makes no sense and gives me a headache. Also, where does the cassette master come into play? It's the same as the early UK vinyl release apart from having a few tracks moved around, right?

unheard78,
The US 1973 LP copy I just mentioned has the full bass version of S&D same as UK 1973. I assume that this is referred to as the alternate mix of S&D.

I think the idea that only the first UK LP had the alt S&D and that it was only available on a limited press is based on misinformation and guesswork. I suspect that the 'alt' version of S&D was the standard until a cock-up with the Embassy reissue.
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rubber legs

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:23 pm

mr.datsun wrote:
The US 1973 LP copy I just mentioned has the full bass version of S&D same as UK 1973. I assume that this is referred to as the alternate mix of S&D.

I think the idea that only the first UK LP had the alt S&D and that it was only available on a limited press is based on misinformation and guesswork. I suspect that the 'alt' version of S&D was the standard until a cock-up with the Embassy reissue.

I have the 1973 US pressing and it DOES NOT have the alternate mix of S&D. I believe others have said that this is true of their copies too.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:26 pm

cantona7 wrote:
in response to mr datsun I have the two 'embassy tracks' on the deluxe. They are the same as the standard bowie mix.

cantona7,

thanks for your reply. Are you saying that there is no difference between the 2 'embassy tracks' on the deluxe and the standard versions on disc 1?
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:10 am

jp stooges in my view the original UK CBS sounds the best of all the vinyl versions I have heard, the good embassy (the one with the bassy version of s and d) is exactly the same mix but is less well pressed, embassy was a CBS budget label after all

rubber legs i think you have the embassys the wrong way round, the one you suggest is the bad one is the one I have with the bassy s and d on it as per the original UK CBS, the labels on that one are the 70s embassy labels and i think the other labels were used in the 80s.

mr datsun yes the 2 so called embassy tracks on cd3 sound like the standard versions to my ears, there may be some very slight eq differences but the mixes are just the same
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:07 am

mr.datsun wrote:
unheard78 wrote:
Okay, let's clear something up really quick... Only the early UK pressing had the alternate mix of Search and Destroy, right? Or did any of the Embassy pressings have it too? If only the early UK ones had it, then why the hell would the guys at Sony name that master the Embassy Reels? It makes no sense and gives me a headache. Also, where does the cassette master come into play? It's the same as the early UK vinyl release apart from having a few tracks moved around, right?

unheard78,
The US 1973 LP copy I just mentioned has the full bass version of S&D same as UK 1973. I assume that this is referred to as the alternate mix of S&D.

I think the idea that only the first UK LP had the alt S&D and that it was only available on a limited press is based on misinformation and guesswork. I suspect that the 'alt' version of S&D was the standard until a cock-up with the Embassy reissue.

Okay, another twist, but I've got a theory (although I'm sure everyone else has one too). So we have reports of pressings that have the alternate mix of S&D but in widely varying areas. I don't know about the UK, but in the US didn't the major labels use several different pressing plants for their vinyl releases? If the pressing plant was accidentally sent the wrong plates then everything would be explained.

The more I think about this theory, with the album having been a low priority at CBS, it may be quite possible that the parties responsible for getting the album to press may not have checked themselves. Were there multiple pressing plants for major labels in the UK? What about elsewhere?

By the way, I did a post about the multiple versions of Search and Destroy at my blog yesterday. If anyone wants to see it, my blog's address is: unheard78.blogspot.com

In it, I wrote that Sony screwed up bad in trying to please a notoriously difficult to please audience. We need more people who are prepared to rip the labels a new asshole for their screw ups and I'm pleased to see the Stooges fan-base is prepared for such issues. It's funny because we always hear stories about the Kiss Army being violent and ready to take on their opposition without question. Something tells me the Stooges fans would be more dangerous and tactically superior, leading to a red-ass beatdown on the opposition's part. I know this is all kinda off topic, but I thought I'd mention this as I thought it was a good compliment. Hope you all agree.
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TeddyB1018



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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:33 am

I hesitate to get into this fray, but Mick Jones, Brian James, John Lydon and many more London faces would have had an original copy of Raw Power. Whatever was released in 1977 may have sold to the punters, but the musos were already onboard.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Power CD 3: Interesting issues... and more!!!   Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:04 am

cantona7 wrote:
rubber legs i think you have the embassys the wrong way round, the one you suggest is the bad one is the one I have with the bassy s and d on it as per the original UK CBS, the labels on that one are the 70s embassy labels and i think the other labels were used in the 80s.

The plot thickens. I own both a 1973 US pressing and the Embassy pressing pictured second above. Both have the standard, less bassy version of S&D.

cantona7 wrote:
1977 Embassy press CBS Embassy S31464 matrix numbers S31464 A1 and B1.

My Embassy copy's full matrix is: CBS S 31464 A# 2 and CBS S 3164 B# 2, with the "#" representing scratched out ones. S&D may be mastered slightly differently than the standard Bowie mix, but it's definitely the same mix.
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